You’ve probably been on the receiving end of buying a course that didn’t quite live up to the hype that you saw on the sales page. You didn’t get the results you wanted or maybe the course took more time than you expected or you spent more than you planned because of all the “bonuses” (and fear tactics) that you were fed.
This has happened to me too! And I know way too many business owners who have fallen into this trap too.
This week on the podcast, Deanna Seymour is sharing the solution to this problem.
If you’ve ever bought a shiny object and regretted it later (or you want to avoid selling a course that won’t give buyers what they’re actually looking for), this is the episode for you.
Mentioned in This Episode Podcast
- Steal This Course
- Follow Deanna on Instagram
- Follow Deanna on TikTok
- Connect with Deanna on LinkedIn
- Schedule a call with me
- Connect with me on LinkedIn
- Follow me on Instagram
About Deanna Seymour
Digital Marketing Strategist and host of the podcast, Eff That: Breaking the Rules of Online Business, Deanna Seymour knows the power of creativity, fun, and lettin’ your freak flag fly when it comes to marketing your business.
Whether she’s hosting an online coworking sesh or helping a client get over their fear of being on camera, Deanna uses humor and empathy to build a community that helps people feel seen, heard, and ultimately more comfortable in their own skin so they can have more fun getting in front of their perfect-fit clients.
When she’s not working with clients, she’s probably callin’ out sleazy marketing tactics, hangin’ with her fam, or sneaking in some crappy reality tv!
She is a mom to 5 kids, a nature-lover, herbalist and community builder.
Transcript
Abby Herman 0:08
Hey there, and welcome to episode 231 of The Content Experiment podcast, a podcast for service driven business owners who know that content is important, and that there is so much more to marketing and business growth. Here we talk about showing up for your audience in a way that they want to hear and in a way that’s sustainable for you. This might mean publishing a weekly podcast or blog. But it also means paying attention to your email list, leveraging other people’s audiences, building relationships, and getting over the limiting mindsets that often hit when we’re reaching for the next level in our business.
Abby Herman 0:45
I’m Abby Herman, content strategist and podcast manager for business owners who want to make their marketing field easier and more streamlined, so they can get back to serving their clients and making those sales. I’ll show you how, or I’ll do it for you while you do business in a way that works for you. I can help by supporting you through building a content and marketing strategy, taking care of the podcast management for you or giving you the tools and resources to take this on yourself.
Abby Herman 1:13
I don’t think I know a single person out there who hasn’t paid for a course or program then sat back and wondered where the ROI was from it. We’re promised all the things but since not all businesses are created equal. And especially not all business owners are in the same place. Not all courses will deliver the results they claim. And we’re all susceptible to the shiny object syndrome. That is this online business space. Those shiny sales pages do their job to sell courses and programs, things that we buy, even though we might not be ready for them, or we maybe don’t need them at all. I have done it too. Too many times.
Abby Herman 1:55
So this week’s guest, Deanna Seymour did something about it, creating a course ironic, I know that helps you discern what courses are right for you, and pulls back the curtain on what makes you individually you the individual by all of the things even if you don’t need them. The conversation I had with Deanna could have gone on so much longer than it did. We talk about teaching and learning, sleazy marketing tactics, the value of courses or not, and why it’s okay to trade time for money despite what you hear online.
Abby Herman 2:34
Before we get into the conversation here is a little bit more about Deanna. Digital marketing strategist and host of the podcast F That: Breaking the Rules of Online Business, Deanna Seymore knows the power of creativity, fun and letting your freak flag fly when it comes to marketing your business. Whether she’s hosting online co working sessions or helping a client get over their fear of being on camera, Deanna uses whom humor and empathy to build a community that helps people feel seen, heard and ultimately more comfortable in their own skin, so they can have more fun getting in front of their perfect fit clients. When she’s not working with clients. She’s probably calling out sleazy marketing tactics, hanging with her family or sneaking in some crappy reality TV. Here is our conversation.
Abby Herman 3:27
Hi, Deanna. Thank you so much for joining me. I’m really excited to talk about being different in business today with you.
Deanna Seymour 3:34
Awesome, thanks for having me. I’m super stoked about it, too.
Abby Herman 3:37
Yeah. So before we get started, can you share with listeners what you do and who you do it for?
Deanna Seymour 3:42
Yeah, I’m, I’m a digital marketing strategist. So I help business owners get really clear about their personal brand, where they want to show up and how they want to show up, and then I actually help them do it. So even though there’s strategy behind it, I’m also an implementer. So I help you figure out what to do. And then I’m there to support you in whatever that looks like for you. Whether it’s graphics or video, video editing, or email writing, like, I’m sort of, I call myself the right hand, man, for people in business.
Abby Herman 4:14
I love that term of the right hand, man, I like it. Can you share with listeners because I know this is gonna go along with some of the things that we are going to talk about. How do you actually work with clients? And how does the way that you structure that help you to live the lifestyle that you want?
Deanna Seymour 4:32
Um, well, I work mostly one on one with clients. I do have a community. Um, so that’s kind of for maybe newer business owners like DIY people, and then one on one I work with people. Like I was just saying, to really help them drill down their content, we make content plans, we meet for like an hour each month, figure out what we’re going to do and then we like, get to work do it. So you know, I feel like the way social media is going these days like you have to kind of show up in your reels and You have to be a part of it a little bit. Obviously, you can try to hide behind like cool animations or graphics or audiograms. But my clients like to be involved. So we sort of work together with me doing as much of the work as I can do. But with them showing up enough to still be there, like actually have one client who I write her emails for her, but she wants to know what’s going on. Because she is really awesome at networking. And she was like, I never want to be at a networking event. And someone talks to me about an email and I have, like, no idea what they’re talking about, you know, like, I’ll be texting her. Have you seen White Lotus? Like, I want to put a white lotus reference in this email? Have you seen it, because she values like the actual relationship she’s building with her people. So there’s still like some back and forth. I’m not like an agency, they don’t just outsource it to me. And I’m the only person here in my age, I guess I’m like an agency, but I do everything. So I think that helps make a bunch of consistency across the board in the voice and the visuals and the whole sort of look for it.
Abby Herman 6:04
And how does that help you to? Or? Or is there anything that you do to help like, kind of craft the lifestyle that you want within that client work?
Deanna Seymour 6:14
I mean, I love I mean, I just get to be at home and work from my house. So I used to be a teacher. So I was I taught high school art. And then I taught elementary school art. It’s kind of funny, actually. Now, this is like something I’m just realizing right now. So I taught high school art. And I taught it in a school for kids. That was like their last chance, I guess in the like school, like you were about to be expelled. But they were like, Okay, one more stop. And that was our school. And then I got really burnt out and stressed out and stopped working had my daughter. And then I was like, Okay, I want to go back. But I want to like work with that same kind of demographic in elementary school, because I wanted to, like help them maybe before they got to that point. And now that I’m thinking about it, I’m like, Oh my gosh, that’s kind of what I do in business to like, working with, like, older businesses or more established businesses, but I really have a sweet spot for like, helping younger businesses like get to that point. So I don’t know, this is what I do I talk and now I’m like, Wait, what did you ask me?
Abby Herman 7:19
Well, I want to, I want to get back to so the whole lifestyle piece? Yeah, so I think that a lot of people I know that a lot of because I’ve heard them and and, and I kind of was this way to you leave your day job, because you’re tired of working nine to five, you’re tired of all of the structure, or you’re tired of having to follow somebody else’s rules. And, and I think like as former teachers, I get to go to the bathroom when I need to go to the bathroom.
Deanna Seymour 7:51
And sometimes I still don’t. And I’m like, What am I doing, I don’t have to wait for this class to be Oh, like, I know, you have to finish this email like I can go right now that’s so funny you brought that up with that.
Abby Herman 8:02
And I don’t have to say I’m drinking this diet coke at nine o’clock in the morning, because I’m the teacher not because you know, like, leave me alone. So I think that we leave and and I for sure feel this felt the same way that you like when I when I started working from home, oh my gosh, I have all this freedom. I, I you know, I can wear my pajamas all day, I can whatever. And I did do that. And I found that I have to get up and I have to do things and get ready and look presentable. You know, that was, it was nice to have the freedom. But like you said, before we hit record, this is a job. We still need to show up, we still have to be here we’re working. You know, and the way that you talk about how you work with clients, one to one is so very similar to how I work with clients to where we have a regular meeting, and I’m showing up for them on a regular basis. And they’re showing up on a regular basis. You know, I’m expecting them to show up on a regular basis. And so yeah, I think that, and this is, and I think that that’s very unusual, when maybe not unusual, but it’s different in this online space, which is exactly what we’re talking about today.
Deanna Seymour 9:15
Oh, well. It’s all like you were saying, Yeah, well I, like have the dates for my clients, which now I’m thinking oh, that’s like the teacher and I’m going to do this, like you’re going to do this, we’re gonna swap or then you have to record and then I’m going to edit the reels. And we have systems in place. And you’re right, it is due dates, but also like you were saying My lifestyle is that I I mean not to be too weird, but like, I was drinking a lot when I was teaching and I think there’s like a lot of teachers like wine. Like teacher wine culture is super strong, but I was stressed out I always felt like I wasn’t doing enough. I felt like I wasn’t treated by my principles like a professional like I couldn’t really do what I wanted to do, but I was constantly being asked to do more. So like all that’s gone now. And I get to show up and like you said, it’s still work. But it’s work that I love with people I love. Like it. You know, there were some students who weren’t my favorite and they’re there no matter what. But now if I have a client that’s not working out, like, we can part ways, you know, like, I get to choose who I want to work with, and I get to choose, like, you set the hours I want to work, and I get to get my daughter off the bus. Like if I was still teaching, she would be an after school care. There’s just all these things like the idea of having more freedom in your business. Sometimes people take that to the extreme, like, I’m going to be on a beach somewhere just like Stripe notifications, money rolling in. But to me, Freedom just means I get to do the work that I like, with people I like, and still get my kid off the bus. Like that’s enough. That’s that’s a good amount of freedom for me. I’m okay with that.
Abby Herman 10:46
Yes, I couldn’t figure out why I wasn’t getting the little Pay Pal notifications over and over. Why are people paying me money?
Deanna Seymour 10:56
Why are they buying all the things? Why are people giving me money for like nothing? I just throw something up on the internet. And then I just keep getting money? What’s going on? It’s broken. Yeah.
Abby Herman 11:06
Oh, my goodness, oh, I resonate with so much of what you said. And I was fully into that mom coin culture also, when I was teaching and drinking a lot, and I actually quit drinking about two and a half years ago. So and it’s been like, completely life changing for me to do that. And just I’m in such a better place all the way around. So so interesting, because I haven’t like officially quit drinking, but I drink so so so much less. And I mean, I think it’s just like, for me personally, it’s probably just a product of me feeling happier in my day to day life. You don’t have to numb out anymore. Yes, yes. I love it. Oh, my gosh. Okay. So let’s talk a little bit about Well, first of all, I want to go back to something else. You said, we’re just going to keep doing that. We’re just gonna keep going back.
Deanna Seymour 11:56
This is the ride. You’re, you’re talking to me.
Abby Herman 11:59
So you said that you really care a lot about helping newer business owners? So let’s talk a little bit about that. Because I mean, I kind of feel like I’m on the same page, you know, just because of experiences that I’ve had. So why why? Why do you want to help newer business owners?
Deanna Seymour 12:17
Well, I think I think I do think it’s the teacher in me, like I love helping people, I feel like that’s like a helper job, right. So going from being a teacher whose job is to help people to an online business owner where I sort of felt like it, it felt like when I first came into online business, you just made a course. And this was kind of my route and was like through taking courses. And also taking courses about making courses, because then you make a course and like we were just saying you’re on the beach and the strike notifications are just coming in, everybody’s buying your course. And you don’t have to do anything, because you make videos. So like, that’s teaching them. So I feel like going through that path. I was like, wait, I feel like no one really cares. Number one, if they need the course, or number two, if they’re actually getting anything from the course, because I do feel like, and again, I’m going back to teaching now. But like, you know, there’s prerequisites to taking a course. So if you’re going to sign up for art, four, you have to have taken art three into one. That’s just how it works, it builds on each other. So in online business, we’re just selling courses for whatever to whomever, and not worried about if they’re like ready for that information yet, because usually there’s some steps before. Like, if you’re taking a course on email marketing, if you have no list yet, you probably made a list building course, before the email marketing course. But also, on all the sales pages, they’re not even really talking about what’s in the course, which, you know, from an education standpoint is like what I feel like is important. They’re talking about that vision of like, take this course, and you’re going to learn how to sell email, like send emails that get you 1000s of dollars every time you push, send, and you’re just going to be on the beach, living your best life. And so that’s what I started feeling like, oh, well, I just, but I was like, How do I know? How do I know that that’s gonna happen for them? How do I know? I don’t even know who’s buying it. I don’t know where they’re at in their business. I feel really uncomfortable making all these promises without knowing those two questions, but I’m not allowed to know the people because that would take time. And I’m not supposed to use time to make money. I’m supposed to just get all this passive income. So I started getting really, really, really confused and feeling like I was not good at online business. Because I mean, I don’t I guess it’s my ethics or my, my past teaching. It felt like my ideas were getting in the way of how things were done. And I wasn’t making any money, because I wasn’t really doing what they were telling me to do because it didn’t feel right. But I also didn’t know what else to do. So I was just like, sort of at standstill being like, Oh, this is weird. I don’t know what to do. So yeah, that’s why I think I care about new business owners because it feels like a lot of people don’t they just sort of see new business owners as a really easy sell, like a really easy purchase, like a target and easy target to sell something to because you’re new, you don’t really know what’s going on. And that’ll be the perfect person. Like, they don’t know anything. They don’t know any better. So I’ll just like market this to them. And then I’ll get a bunch of money. And I’ll say, like, who cares if they get it? Or they don’t get it? Because I already got paid?
Abby Herman 15:33
Yes, well, yeah, I think I feel like and I know, and I’m saying this from experience as a, you know, a former new business owner, I was in panic mode, I just like I needed this to work, I needed to figure it out, I needed to, I needed to make money, you know, and I thought that all of these got, I would be really depressed. If I sat down and went through all of the courses that I bought, like, that would be a huge downer, yes, to think about how much money I wasted on courses. And, and even, you know, in the last couple of years, I’ve been doing this full time for 10 years, and last couple of years, I’ve made some investments, that haven’t panned out for a couple of reasons, either it wasn’t a good fit for me, or I didn’t do the work, you know, I bought the course, knowing that this is what I need. And I didn’t actually do the work to like, get through the course or program or whatever. So that part’s on me. But a lot of it, you know, like, Oh, this is the new thing. It’s so easy to get distracted by shiny objects and, you know, flashy sales pages, and oh, look at look at these people who are buying this course I need that too. I wouldn’t be like that person.
Deanna Seymour 16:53
So yeah, it’s really interesting, because I want to like push back on you if that’s okay, I know what’s your Punisher go for? I don’t think it’s like, necessarily your fault completely. Because again, I feel like it’s that piece of even just them taking the time to figure out like, what you need or what you don’t need or who you are where you are in your business. Like, if you didn’t do it, like, I interrupt myself a lot. I don’t know if you do that, too. But I just, I did and I’m like, Oh my gosh, no way. I’m not gonna sit doesn’t nevermind. It’s kind of there’s a lot of overlap. I think in diet culture, and online business where I feel like, you know, 95% of people or 90%, people don’t even finish the online course, like that is a thing, you know, and like people can lose weight on diets. But the statistics on how many people keep it off. That’s a thing like that is hard data, that people who are selling you the dream of losing all that weight and keeping it off or not keeping it off or whatever, I just think there’s this weird subtlety happening, where we end up feeling like, oh, well, that was my fault. And I just want to say, sometimes, it’s not, especially because sales pages, don’t say this is hard, it’s gonna take a while, you’re gonna have to watch all the videos and implement the stuff. The sales pages are like, Oh, this is super easy, it can save you so much time, but you have to do the course, which takes time, money, which means you’re like, further in the hole in terms of your business, or like putting yourself backwards with money. So now you have to watch all the videos, implement the stuff and make more money to like, even get back to zero. So sometimes quitting a course might be the smartest thing for you to do. In that moment, like you were saying, getting distracted by shiny objects and sales pages. But also that’s like what they’re designed to do. Right? So right, just saying might not be all your fault. You can like allow allow you to take some of it, but not all of it.
Abby Herman 18:50
Okay, okay. Yeah, so okay, I want to talk about the, you had mentioned the prerequisites for courses. So if somebody is trying to sell a course, on email marketing, you need to have a list first. So how does the business owner who is creating these courses? How does the business owner know like, how do you, like explain it because I totally understand. And I’ve been in the same position as the business owner trying to sell a program where they need to know this thing. But first, they have to do all these other things. And so then I create this course that’s completely and totally overwhelming and has way too much information in it. And then people are not going to finish it. So how do you as a business owner, kind of figure that out?
Deanna Seymour 19:42
Well, I’m also let me just say that I never pretend to know all the answers. This is all just me experimenting and totally different things. I recently took a course. Like I’m always like, I don’t take courses just nobody knows. As a teacher. I’m like, I’m a lifelong learner. I do Like courses, but um, I took a course called the audio course accelerator, I think through Hello audio, which is my private podcast hosting people. And I love them. And they did a core course on making a course it’s so meta. And they were saying one thing they said during that course was that you have, you have a lot of courses in you. So I think that we do get, when we start to write a course, we put a lot of information, and we just keep adding to it and adding to it. So I have started thinking, what if you break those courses up into smaller courses and almost do it like a college or a school, like, if you want to make a signature course, on email marketing, we’ll just go with that, because that’s what we’ve been talking about. But like, maybe it’s three parts, or four parts, or whatever. So we have like, the list building module could be a low cost, lower cost course, let’s say you want to sell the whole thing for $1,000. What if it was, you know, even if it was 10 $100? Course, like, maybe they could just keep going, which I think would be really fair. And also, they could get in there for 100 bucks and like, see your teaching style, see if they finish that, see if they do grow their list. But I do think there are some people in online business who would be like, Well, I don’t want them to do that, because they only spent $100. And I want to make one dollars. And also, what if they only pay me 1000? They never finished that course. Or they don’t get what I promised them in that course, then they might not buy any more courses for me. But my pushback to that would be like, Okay, well, it wasn’t it wasn’t a fit, like, Why do you think they should give you more money? Just because you have these goals, like these revenue goals, or whatever. Like, I almost think it would make course creators have to like, earn their earn their money, which I know is a crazy concept.
Abby Herman 21:57
I can’t believe you just said that. How dare you?
Deanna Seymour 22:01
Yeah, but I think like little little things here and there. And I think also as a course buyer, trying to think, what’s my next step? And just trying to learn the next step? Not the whole thing. Not you’re gonna like nail email marketing, and you’re gonna make 1000s and 1000s of dollars, but just like, what’s the next thing I need to do? And is there a course? Or sometimes it’s just a YouTube video that you could watch to learn that that thing? Because I think we tend to also just want to look for an answer, instead of just doing the thing, because really how you grow your email list is put yourself out there many, many, many, many, many times very uncomfortably saying, I have this thing would you like to sign up for my email list, and that is very uncomfortable and hard. And so it just be easier to go find a course and buy it and start reworking your opt in and start you know, like, I think a lot of growing your business is showing up and putting yourself out there. And that’s super uncomfortable and hard to do. So it’s just easier to buy a course about it. I think it’s worth the money. Like it’s worth the money to like distract yourself from doing the thing that actually you have to do, right? So get so desperate that you’re like, oh, I need to make money. Like you said, like, I need to do this. And if your answer to when you’re like, oh, I need to do this is always to buy another course. You’re just distracting yourself from growing your business and putting yourself like I said further in that hole money wise to dig yourself out.
Abby Herman 23:34
So, so yeah, the time is gonna pass either way, you might as well spend time actually doing the thing. Instead of thinking about it. I agree. And I’m a lifelong learner, too. Like I read a ton of books and I’m constantly wanting to learn new things. And I also know that sometimes I do that as a way to distract myself. Lou Yeah, me too. Mostly from my own thoughts. Because I’m usually I usually have earbuds in my, in my ears, I walk my dogs and clean and cook and all that. And it’s like, that’s my distraction technique to not think about the things that I that I should probably be thinking about.
Deanna Seymour 24:13
Yeah, yeah, procrasti-learning. Right.
Abby Herman 24:15
There you go. I love it. So okay, so let’s like flip it a little bit here and talk about the selling time for money piece that you you mentioned. So which is the opposite of creating a course and sitting on the beach and just letting the money roll in? So can you talk about why selling time for money is something that you say that you that you love, because that’s for sure, not the norm. And we kind of touched on this a little bit earlier talking about teaching and all of that, but I’d love to hear your your take on that.
Deanna Seymour 24:50
Well, I mean, I think it’s, it’s pretty simple. Like, that is the way I’ve made money in my business. So that’s what I like, like wow, this works go figure when I tell people I will do a service for them, they pay me money. And we trade money for like, they trade me their money for my time. And when I first started, and I was learning, like I said, how how to make a course, how to do all that stuff. I was working really hard, really hard trying to make courses and trying to map out this plan for, for that pipe dream of like you said, being on the beach and making money. And I was working so hard, not making any money at all. But with this idea that it’s going to pay off, eventually it’s going to pay off, it’s gonna pay off. And it never paid off. And to be on to be fair, I switched and I was like, You know what, actually, I just want to, like, does anybody want I started, the first time I ever made money in my business was in my Instagram stories. I did an experiment, a whole week of experiments. And I just said, the first one was like, Who wants a GIF? You know, like a little giffy a GIF. I was like, I just had my new iPad. I know how to make gifts. It’s really fun for me. $20, who wants a GIF? And I made $1,000 Selling gifts. And later I was like, okay, $20 is like, maybe not enough money. Like one person that was like, hand drawing a Ferris Bueller’s Day Off. Yes, whatever. But it wasn’t really fun. It was fun. But maybe not a sustainable business model. But it was the very first time in my business, that I got money. And I made gifts. And I was an art teacher. I feel like I’ve had craft businesses I’ve made that I like making things. So I was like, oh, Doug, why don’t? Why doesn’t my business just be I’ll make you stuff for your business. And that was like such a lightbulb moment, which seems so silly. Now to say, that was a lightbulb moment. But I had so much coming at me so much information. And maybe it was the algorithm and what I was searching and the courses I was buying, but I just had so much coming at me that was about passive income. And everything was telling me it would be wrong for me to have to do that, like have to know somebody’s colors and fonts and spend all this time to make them something. But it was the first thing that ever gave me money in my business. So I was like, okay, new plan. We’re gonna start trading time for money. And as my business grew, I did start selling little workshops here and there about like, things. I was like, oh, you know, sometimes you think what, you know, everybody knows. But I started to realize, like, oh, people maybe don’t know how to make a gift. Or maybe my gift prices did go up. So I was like, let me make a little course for people who want to make their own. That feels like a good timeline, like a good way to do and like I was making money. And I was like, Okay, maybe not everyone can buy a gift from me. But what if people want to learn how to do it? Like, I’m a teacher, also, what was I doing buying courses about how to teach, like, I literally went to college to learn how to teach. And then I was paying people who were not teachers, to teach me how to teach. Because I was actually buying what was on the sales page, like I was buying the dream of being on the beach, I wasn’t buying. If the sales page said like how to write a lesson how to come up with curriculum, I’d be like, Oh, I know all I know how to do all that. But I didn’t know how to grow a business and just not do any work. That was I don’t want to do that. That’s what I paid for. And not what I got. But um, so as my business grew like, now I have my community, which I feel like is not passive at all. I know everybody in my community. But it’s more of a like many to one service. So it’s not the same as my one to one work. But I kind of feel like sometimes people flip it and they have all these dreams of making this whole business be about passive income. Yeah, when you might have to, like, build some relationships, like that’s part of my network to my community. Like, I know that they would refer me to somebody if they needed help with the things I do. My community knows what I do. And also I like people. Yeah, like, why am I trying to like eliminate people from my life and only get their money but not ever know them? I actually enjoy people. And that’s part of what I missed about my date about teaching, like co workers and my students, everybody like I was like, now it’s just me at my house in my office. I have time to like meet people and talk to them. So just kind of looking at what what do you really want to do? And is there a way to get money?
Abby Herman 29:25
Yeah,
Deanna Seymour 29:26
and what can you do for someone for money, which sounds weird.
Abby Herman 29:33
but your group I mean your group is because I agree you absolutely have to show up. I don’t care if you are a one to many business or a one to one business or something in between. You know, if you never want to talk to a single person and you just want to sell courses, you still have to show up and your group sounds like your community sounds like a very curated marketing tool where you even if Even if it’s free, because it’s free, correct your community
Deanna Seymour 30:04
they paid.
Abby Herman 30:05
Yeah, okay, well, perfect. Yeah. So even better. So you’re getting paid, and you’re still marketing to them, or you’re marketing in front of them. So they know who you are. They’re getting having building this relationship with you. And, you know, yeah, and if it’s a low cost investment on a monthly basis, then they’re still, you know, they’re, they’re getting like the knowledge of view. And you also said, You’re sad that like the whole at the very beginning, you said the whole time for that. They’re paying you and you’re giving them your time, essentially, they just agree. So I’m gonna push back on you. Yeah, yeah. Yes, you’re giving them your time. But you’re also giving them all of the brain power, all of the things that you’ve learned over the course of all your teaching career and your your business career. So you’re giving them so much more. So even because I know a lot of people think that, well, I can’t pay that much, or I can’t charge that much for XYZ thing. Well, guess what, you have spent so many years honing this craft of yours? Yes, you can, because they don’t want to learn it. I pay people to do things for me, because I don’t, I either don’t want to learn how to do it. Or I just don’t want to do it myself. So you’re giving so much more back to people by charging that and there are people out there who do not want to take a course they don’t want to learn how to do something. And I think that yeah, people like you and like me, because I do one on one work. I get so much satisfaction from seeing the things that I do, like show up on somebody’s website or land in the podcast feed or whatever, I get a lot of satisfaction from that. I’d love to see it. Yes, sometimes the one to one work is difficult. Yes, sometimes I have to work when I had planned to take a day off or when I don’t really want to work. However, I feel like I get you know, a lot of satisfaction. And I get freedom and other ways to that I don’t think that you can get when you’re selling courses. So yeah, there’s that story about like Picasso or somebody, some aha, they just like drew on a little piece of paper, a little scrap piece of paper, whatever, I’m totally messing up the story. But you know, and he said, like, it’s 1000s of dollars or whatever it was Picasso and they were like, what it only took you five seconds to do and yeah.
Deanna Seymour 32:36
lifetime of training and all the things. So yeah, you’re right, that is totally true. And I will say that I still struggle with pricing and all that stuff. But also that’s something you can change. Like, you can raise your you know, I started with the $20 gifts. I think sometimes I think of apprentices like hairstylist, I have friends who went into the hairstylist, Also fun fact about me. I did one semester of hair school, and then so I’m like a beauty school dropped back. For a second, I was like, Oh, this is what I’m gonna do. But you know, like, they start off as apprentices in their salon, and maybe the haircuts 25 bucks, you know, and then they’re, I don’t know, I feel like each salon kind of has different names for the, you know, talent, or whatever they call it and they move up and they move up. And like I have a girlfriend and Marina who was $25 When I first went to see her I think now she like works with new people, they have their own space. I mean, that’s like 10 years, but her haircuts are $250. Now, why because like you’re saying whatever, and it’s okay to like, I probably won’t pay Marina $250 for a haircut, just because I don’t value haircuts that much. Like I will chop my own hair if I want because it’s Tuesday, and I’m like, Oh, my hair feels long, and we chop it. But there’s plenty of people paying Marina $250 for her haircuts. But if Marina just came right out of the gate, and was like it’s $250 for a haircut ever. It’d be like, what? I don’t know about that. Like, she had to keep working up to that. So I also think this whole, like, you know, charge what you’re worth. And it all sounds really good. But I had to do that first round of $20 gifts to know, oh, yeah, this takes me a while like this is and also like, hey, my gifts are pretty good. Like you, you boost your confidence, you get money. And you just keep keep going. So I’ve like really embraced the word experiment in my business to be like, hey, you know, I’ll send out email to my list and be like, Okay, this is an experiment, I want to start editing reels. Here’s what I’m gonna do. And they sort of know that an experiment means this isn’t gonna last forever. Like this is a learning curve for me. Because how can you know if you don’t try things? So that’s like a way I’ve sort of incorporated that into my business. So I don’t have to make those decisions because I think those can slow you down to being like, what should I charge? What should I charge? Just do it? Yeah, just do it and raise it if you want to. Yeah, I think so.
Abby Herman 34:59
I agree. I I totally agree. And you know, this being the content experiment. I’m all about experimenting, too, you have to try different things. And you have to just do it and stop thinking about it and stop talking about it and just do the thing already.
Deanna Seymour 35:14
Yeah. And ask for money. Because I feel like you can say, Does anybody would you want gifts? Like, do you think you would buy gifts? How much would you pay for a gift? Like, people will say, yeah, people will say, Oh, yeah, that’s a good idea. Yeah, that sounds fun. I would do, like, the real vote is if they give you money, more than so starting, you know, I’m not saying starting low on purpose. I’m just saying, like, start with what you feel like, is what you want to charge, even though, and I knew what I was doing. 20 I was like, I feel like this might might be too long. But this is what feels like what I want to say right now. And, and cap it to like, say, I’m only gonna sell, you know, 20 gifts at this price or whatever. I’m just getting a feel for if I want to offer this, here’s a new thing. But the real vote is if people pay you because I do find that people will say like, oh, that’s a great idea. You should totally do that. And then you’re spending all this time. And then when you bust it out for real, and they’re like, Okay, who wants to actually buy it? Sometimes you’re like, Oh, I just love you about this. Payment, honey.
Abby Herman 36:14
Yeah, people will vote with their money. I agree. Yeah. So I want to go back to courses and talk about you have a course called steal this course. And it goes back to what we were talking about before around making the decision to buy courses and you know, the value of them and all of that, and I just we just wrapped up a series on money and sales and, and financial insecurity and all of that. And so I feel like this fits really neatly into that. Can you share more about what it is and why you’re so passionate about this particular course, that we kind of bashed courses a little bit, but I think this is a really, really good one for people to check out.
Deanna Seymour 37:02
Yeah. Okay. So back when I can’t, so I got sort of disenchanted with online business, and I was gonna quit my whole businesses before they get sale after me spending a bunch of courses and not being on the beach yet being all mad. And I was like, Okay, I’m not doing that. And then I think it was like 2020 Maybe I was like, Okay, I’m back. And I’m starting to notice there’s other people talking about how there’s some sleazy marketing going on. Like there’s some weird stuff happening. And so I made my first ever I talked about Hello audio earlier, but my first ever private podcast was called Online Marketing made unsleeved easy. It was mostly my story, like my personal story of buying courses. In the beginning, I tell a story and I talked about this and steal this course also, but I bought a $2,000 course. While my husband was in the hospital like without asking him because the deadline was approaching and he was aligned cook I was a teacher $2,000 was a lot of money to us. So maybe not considered high ticket in some circles, but for the Seymour’s $2,000 was high ticket, and I did not even ask him. And it was terrible. It was like a bad, the bad scene. He was actually really understanding but it was like parents when they say, I’m not mad, I’m just disappointed. I’m still like, I’m feel like I’m gonna cry, like thinking about his face. So it was bad news bears. I was in deep, like you said, just feeling desperate and feeling like what can I do? What can I do? That’s also like, you know, somebody’s in the hospital. Like, you don’t know what the bill is gonna be. I feel like that’s all uncertainty. So bad news. So that was that course. And I like named names. I was like, here’s the courses I took. Here’s the celebrity entrepreneurs I want to talk about like Boba was a little like, I was unhappier and I drank too much, and I just recorded this. So for like, a year, I mean, I don’t know it’s 2023. So steel, this course is finally out. After I cooled my jets a little bit, I was like, I need to rerecord this as like, a little more academic. And I also stumbled upon Maggie Patterson and Michelle major do the podcast due to the dark side of online business. And Maggie and Michelle do not name names. And I was like, looking at them being so classy and like educational. So I was like, Okay, I need to rerecord this really catty masterclass that I did. So that’s what still this course was. And actually, during the audio course accelerator was when I was like, Oh, this will be the perfect time for me to try to map out this course. So, steel, this course does tell my story, and also includes stories from a bunch of other business owners, we got together on Zoom. And they all shared their stories about kind of what trips them up, like what they’ve quote, unquote, fallen for. And then it goes on to talk about some of the marketing tactics people use. So you can sort of keep your eyes peeled for that. But ends with like, a few worksheets on how to really dig into what What you’re susceptible to, because I feel like there’s a lot of talk about timers and countdown timers and stuff, but it could be that you’re like, Oh, those don’t, those don’t affect me at all. There could be people who are like, Oh, when I see a timer, I’m like, I’m gonna get in now before, whatever. So kind of talking to people about all the things that are out there, but then ending with a like, what gets you like what hooks? You I remember one person in the group chat was saying that she’s really susceptible to the photos on sales pages, like when she sees like, everybody looking like, everything’s so easy and happy. And you know, and I thought, Oh, that’s funny. That’s something I never really thought of, and maybe affects me, but that’s interesting. I mean, I’ve never heard me talk about that. But it is part of writing a good sales pages, including like, images of, of the after, right, like making people feel like, Oh, if I buy this, I’m gonna feel like them. So yeah, um, so
Abby Herman 40:55
That’s so cool to like, sorry to interrupt you. That’s so cool to really dig into, you know, what makes you take out your wallet? Yes, I don’t think I don’t, I think the more aware we are, the less it will affect us. And I think that that’s a really important step to take, if you are trying to cool your jets a little bit when it comes to buying courses.
Deanna Seymour 41:20
Yeah, yeah. And so then at the end of the course, you kind of have a framework that I’m hoping people will use when they’re on a sales page. And you’re like, I really want to buy this, like it’s a Google Doc. So I’m like in the course of like, change it delete what doesn’t like if you don’t, that doesn’t trip you up, like delete it. So you don’t have to think about it again. But you pull up your framework and ask yourself, like, Is this something I could finish right now? Have I finished the last course I took just a few questions to like, slow you down. What do people say like access to other part of your brain, like usually on a sales page, you’re sort of getting dysregulated. And you’re thinking, like, your lizard brain is in full effect. And you’re like, I just have to get this course because I don’t know what else to do. So like, take a second, fill out your own worksheet, like use the worksheets I have and make your own kind of hybrid, so that you can just kind of slow down. So I think it’s a really good course. I mean, I know I made it, but also, my punk rock sensibilities are like, it would be really funny and sort of a, you know, middle finger to the establishment if I also let people steal it. So there’s a book from the 70s called steal this book. And it’s sort of a counterculture like, book on how to get free things. I feel like they talk about dumpster diving and stuff. So it’s like, you know, a punk rock thing. So I was like, steal this course would be so funny. So it’s either $9 or you can choose to steal it. And so you can get it for free, if you want to. And I just think it’s really funny, which then I’m like, Is that funny? Because now I’m just giving away my course. But also like, if people need to steal it, I’m like, take it, take it. Yeah, learn from it. And maybe save 1000s of dollars. And like, you know, don’t buy courses without talking your partner. First.
Abby Herman 43:04
Out of curiosity, what’s the downside? That’s something that I don’t have as a partner. So I have like, enlisted upfront business friend of mine to be like, okay, if I’m going to spend more than $1,000, then I’m going to tell you and do you can talk me out of it. Or you can say go for it, Abby.
Deanna Seymour 43:23
And that was part of the framework. That’s one of the questions like, Is there someone you could talk to? And actually I put on there? Like, is there someone in the real world you could talk to? Because sometimes people in the real world are like, what are you gonna do? Like, the online business world is like a whole little weird world is what I call it. And so like, your business friend might be like, go do it. And then if you talk to like, someone outside the online course, bubble, like it might be good to get their input. And it might feel like they’re raining on your parade sometimes, which is how I have felt sometimes with my partner, but later, I’m like, oh, yeah, you were, you know, probably right. You know, yeah.
Abby Herman 44:02
I’ve actually asked my dad a few times about, like, I was gonna spend, I can’t remember if it was $20,000 or $25,000. I don’t remember but I called him. He was a business owner in the 80s and early 90s. And so I was like it so I know, he’ll help me to, like, address the right questions. So he asked me all the right questions and, and, and I used to and I felt like I answered, quote, unquote, correctly. And I was going to do it. I decided not to I got scared at the last minute and I decided not to and I kind of wish I had done it anyway, but still, like $20,000 is a lot of money to spend in your business. And, you know, I think it’s just important to explore all of the questions that you know, an outside person who is not a he’s not, you know, invested In my business, except that he wants me to succeed. So as should any friend or loved one of yours, so yeah,
Deanna Seymour 45:07
well, and I think being in the online business world, we can sort out we’ve sort of become used to those kind of price tags, like I’m not like $20,000. But I feel like if I told some of my friends that right, aren’t in online business, they be like, What are you talking about? That’s a car that’s this, you know, they’re gonna pay. Why, like, they would be shocked. But when you set it, I’m like, Yeah, and it’s totally normal. Yeah, yeah.
Abby Herman 45:33
I feel like that’s a little sad.
Deanna Seymour 45:34
I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.
Abby Herman 45:38
That’s a lot of money. I don’t care how much money you make. It’s $20,000 is still a lot of money. So yeah, definitely. So okay, I know, we’ve been talking like, I can talk to you forever, because I feel like we’re so in alignment on so many things. But we do need to wrap it up. So if listeners could only take action on two of the things that we talked about today, what do you hope they would take action on?
Deanna Seymour 46:03
And I I’m like, I’m such a rule breaker. I’m like, can I say two? Can I give like, two paths? Is your word Feel? Feel like you spend too much on courses where you feel like you can’t say no to a course or you’ve ever heard yourself, say like, we talked about shiny object syndrome? Like if that’s you, I would say check out steal this course. But if you’re like, No, because I have friends who like are not susceptible to courses at all. And I’m like, how do you? You’re magical, like how do you not care about courses, because I do have friends like that in the online business space. So if that’s you, but maybe you’re still starting out, and you’re still like a little nervous, I would say to like, try the experiment thing, like in your email, or in your Instagram stories, or wherever you show up. Just say like, for this week, I’m gonna do this experiment and, like, try to sell something. And don’t worry about if it’s too cheap or whatever, like, trying to experiment if you’re not into courses, but if you’re, like, tripped up by courses, definitely steal the course. Or pay me $9. Ideally,
Abby Herman 46:59
yes, I would say paying $9 $9 I mean, yeah, we’re it’s almost it’s almost like you’re stealing it anyway. Paying $9 or $9 This has been so amazing. I have loved talking talking to you and I want other people to go check you out and find you can you share where to find steal this course, which will also be in the show notes, but where’s your favorite place to hang out online?
Deanna Seymour 47:23
I am I on Instagram the most? Which my username is @theDeannaSeymour. So that is like I love DMs, I love Voice Recording, talking back and forth to people like it’s me. I run my account. So like hit me up. Send me a message if you want whenever. Yeah, I love Instagram.
Abby Herman 47:43
Awesome. And where can people get steal this course?
Deanna Seymour 47:46
They can get that at stealthiscourse.com
Abby Herman 47:49
Imagine that. Awesome. Thank you so much, Deana, for being here. I so appreciate it.
Deanna Seymour 47:53
Thank you for having me. This was so fun.
Abby Herman 47:57
I just loved talking to Deanna. And as we were chatting the wheels were turning in my head about what micro offer I could put out there for you. And as I record this, this outro just a few minutes after she and I finished our interview, they’re still turning, but I’m totally open to experimenting with something. And maybe I’ll have something by the time this episode comes out, we shall see. Well, you try that out too. I know that I will definitely be grabbing danas steal this course, but I’m not actually going to steal it. I’m going to pay the $9 to get my hands on it because from what I can see on the non sleazy sales page. I think that it’s got huge value and big potential for me. If you found value in what you learned here today, be sure to share it on social media. Take a screenshot of the episode on your phone and share it over on Instagram stories. You can tag me at the content experiment and tag Deanna at the Deanna Seymour. It’s D E A N N A SEYMOUR or head over to LinkedIn and connect with us there. Be sure to tell us that you found us on the podcast. When you send the connection invitation. The more you share this podcast with others, the more we can get it into the earbuds of more business owners just like you who need to hear the message that they are not alone. Until next time, take care.
