Making a Sale Isn’t the End with Desola Davis - The Content Experiment
desola davis customer journey

Making a Sale Isn’t the End with Desola Davis

Making a sale should not be the ultimate goal or the finish line of your marketing and business building. Yes, a sale is great, and necessary so you can stay in business. But your work with your customers is far from over when you make that sale.

What happens next? How do you ensure the success of your customers? What happens when they’ve had success with whatever you’re selling? This is what so many business owners forget when planning out their customer journey.

On today’s episode, Desola Davis shares how to look at your own customer journey a little differently and how to use your secret sauce to get big wins for clients. We also discuss why, even though she and I both help clients with customer journey, we are in no way competitors (this is important, friends) and what products (and services) you need for your business to ensure you have a complete journey for your people.

Listen in!

Mentioned in This Episode:

About Desola Davis

Desola Davis is a Business Growth Strategist and digital customer journey expert who helps course creators and coaches attract, convert, and retain their favorite customers using a strategically designed digital product suite. She has a knack for taking big projects and breaking them down into small, actionable steps–a superpower that she’s used to design and implement corporate initiatives totaling over $1M. Her joy is to help online creators and thought leaders find their raving fan base, increase their customer lifetime value, and leverage their secret sauce to grow their business!

To learn more, visit her website and follow her on Instagram.


Abby Herman: Now, if you’re new to the podcast, welcome here, I work really hard to bring you informative and to the point content, because let’s face it, no one has time for fluff these days. If you like what you hear, hit the subscribe button so you don’t miss another episode. I usually release episodes every Monday morning and every other Thursday morning. However, as we prepare for the Content Experiment Summit coming up in March, my plan is to release twice a week, every week until March 15. And a few weeks, you’re going to get a bonus third episode. Oh my gosh, yes, you heard me right. There’s a summit coming up in just a few weeks. I talked about it a bit more on Episode 84, which you can listen to at I talked about the reason behind the summit, the reason behind the name of the summit, because that’s kind of a big deal for me. So head on over there to get some of the details. And in case you don’t, I’m going to give you the short version of the Content Experiment Summit.

Essentially, I know that you’re overwhelmed by content, you don’t know what to create, where to publish it, whether you’re doing the right thing, or how to get better results or anything like that. And there are so many people out there telling you what’s right and what’s not. It’s really noisy out there. I know. At the same time, you could create content on one thing today, and it might work. But three, six months from now, it might not work any longer. Because content is kind of like an experiment. It’s about trying things out and seeing what works and constantly taking a close look at it to see if something else might work better, or might give you different results. It’s about trying things out, not making big sweeping changes, and have everything having everything set in stone. That’s what we don’t want to do, especially since your business is constantly growing and changing. Your content also needs to be pliable, flexible, and be able to constantly change and grow as well. So of course, it’s really hard to find the time to know it all and do it all right. Like, that’s impossible. That is why I’m bringing you the content experiment summit, I’ve carefully gathered some of the best minds that I know in content and business to bring you bite-sized presentations, we’re talking no more than 20 minutes, that can help you make those little changes to what you’re doing. The focus here is on bite-sized and little changes. The Content Experiment Summit isn’t about big sweeping changes, or about starting from scratch. It’s about helping coaches and course creators, digital products, pros make little changes to their podcast or YouTube channel or emails or social media, or many other things that we’re including in the summit. It’s about figuring out how to manage the behind the scenes content better, or use your content in a different way, a way that’s going to get you better results.

And something that I think will make this summit really stand out is that I was incredibly intentional when inviting speakers and reviewing speaker applications. It was my goal, to have the most diverse lineup possible and to include some new voices who we really haven’t heard from in this kind of format. There are so many business owners who have something amazing to say and I want to showcase them. I want to give new voices, or even just different voices, an opportunity to be heard. And honestly, when you see the speaker lineup, it’s possible that you maybe will know everyone there. I doubt it. But it’s possible. Though I am guessing that you might know today’s guest Desola Davis.

I’ve been seeing Desola in the summit circuit lately and after hearing her talk on the Summit Host Hangout podcast, and inside Krista Miller’s community, and of course after doing some light internet stalking, otherwise known as research, of her, I knew that she would be the perfect person to talk about customer journey on the summit. And before you say, but wait Abby, you talk about customer journey. You have a whole downloadable ebook on it. Yeah, you’re right. And we absolutely address that in the episode. It’s actually a really great conversation. So how is Desola a better fit for this topic for me? Well, she’s not necessarily but the fact that she approaches customer journey from a completely different perspective is huge.

In today’s episode, Desola and I talked about using traditional outreach and visibility methods to grow our businesses and how achy that felt for both of us. We talked about why relationships are key to business success, and why getting the sale should not be your end goal with your audience. Honestly, I could have talked to Desola for hours. I’m so excited to have her on the summit so I can learn more from her. Registration isn’t open yet, but you can get on the waiting list at Now, let me tell you more about Desola so we can get on with the interview.

Desola Davis is a business growth strategist and digital customer journey expert, who helps course creators and coaches attract, convert, and retain their favorite customers using a strategically designed digital product suite. She has a knack for taking big projects and breaking them down into small actionable steps, a superpower that she’s used to design and implement corporate initiatives totaling over $1 million. Her joy is to help online creators and thought leaders find their raving fan base, increase their lifetime value, and leverage their secret sauce to grow their business. Without further ado, let’s hear from Desola Davis.

Hi, Desola, thank you so much for joining me today. I am so excited to chat with you.

Desola Davis: Oh gosh, I’m so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah,

Abby Herman: I feel like I’ve heard you in so many places. But now it’s my turn to ask the questions

Desola Davis: I love it!

Abby Herman: I love it. So I’ve already introduced you to the audience. But if you could explain to the listeners, in your own words, what you do and who you do it for?

Desola Davis: Yes. Hi, everyone. My name is Desola Davis, I am a customer journey designer. I hope online coaches and creators scale their signature sales programs by designing a delightful sales experience that they actually enjoy. And getting close to their raving fans and turning their one time customers into repeat buyers.

Abby Herman: I love it. And so how do you actually work with your clients? And then if you can also explain how that- the way you work with your clients- How does that help you to live the lifestyle that you want?

Desola Davis: Oh, that’s a great question. Two great questions. So the way I serve my clients is through one-to-one services. So I do have a VIP day and other one-to-one service packages. But I also have a new program called Strangers to Fans, I’m actually working with my first cycle of people as of the time of this recording, and I’m super excited about it. And so in the one to one service, I actually help you create your own customer journey. I design it in detail. And every product that you have in your entire product suite has a purpose. So we know everything that’s coming in- what your lead magnets are, I call them your step zero products.

So whatever your front-facing audience is seeing that causes them to want to stay in your community a little bit longer, how that qualifies them to become a prospect for your other programs. And then even after they’ve completed your signature program, what the next steps are so that you can continue to be a resource and a solution for them. Because what happens is, when they’re done with your signature program, the truth is you qualify them for something else. People don’t graduate and all of a sudden no longer have any problems, right? So you qualify them for something else, you give them new problems to solve. And if you don’t position yourself as a solution for them, they’re going to go elsewhere and spend their time and their money elsewhere. So you spend all of this time in a relationship with them, gaining their trust and being a solution. And then you kind of pass them off to someone else, instead of just continuing to be the solution.

So I create a detailed customer journey map, I create a sales action plan, and then we run it for 90-day sprints. So after the 90 days, we go back and we make sure that the customer journey is still working for your clients or your customers. And we iterate and we tweak as necessary so that they have a delightful experience from when they first meet you as a stranger until they become your fan.

And then you asked me a second question which was really brilliant. So how it helps me live the lifestyle. I am a connection based person if you’ve ever met me or talk to me or anything like that. I’m a connection based person and I really believe that it is my mission, or just my calling here on earth, to help people unlock their gifts. And whatever they’ve been placed on earth to do, to whoever their they’ve been placed on earth to serve, like helping them to see what their unique position is and how they can serve other people. So it’s very fulfilling for me to see other people win. In my own personal life and the way that I work with my people, one to one and the way that I work with my people in groups, it’s given me the freedom to say yes to the things that are for me and no to the things that are not for me, and having my own business and my own thing gives me that ownership and that authority. And more of an increased self-awareness to say, this is for me and this is not for me. And then as someone also who, and I don’t think we even talked about this offline, but I have a full-time job.

Abby Herman: Oh, I did not know that.

Desola Davis: Yes. And it gives me even more courage to say no to things because I know that I’m not “leaving money on the table” like money doesn’t drive what I do in my business. And it’s such a freeing thing, and things will change in the future, and whatever. But I know even whenever I decide to step into business full time, money’s not going to drive my decision because it never has. So-

Abby Herman: That’s brilliant.

Desola Davis: Yes, having that perspective, and having that courage to try things and experiment, which we’re talking about, even with you and your business, having the courage to try things and experiment has given me more freedom in my business. And it’s allowed me to meet people that I wouldn’t necessarily meet or collaborate with if money was driving, every decision I was making.

Abby Herman: That is so brilliant, I have to say, I’m a little embarrassed to say, but I’m gonna say it anyway because I’m all about being real. Since day one, I mean, I told you, before we hit record, I started my business because I had to, I had no choice, I needed the money. And I had no choice. And since day one, that was in 2007, when I was still working full time, and I was doing freelance writing. And money drove every decision I made to get I needed to feed my kid, and I needed to feed myself, and I needed to pay the rent and all of that. And it was so hard to let go of that. So that was in 2007. 2013, I left my full-time job. Money absolutely drove every decision I made. And I’ve talked to before on the podcast, too, about how I would accept projects and say yes to things, just because I knew it was a paycheck. And I would be miserable while I was doing it, but I would do it because I needed the money. I’m finally to the point where money does not have to drive every decision I make. But I tell you, it’s hard to let go of that.

Desola Davis: It is.

Abby Herman: So I love that you’re able to, like from day one, you’re able to make those decisions because of what feels good to you.

Desola Davis: Yeah, it helps me sell better, to be honest. It helps me-

Abby Herman: I bet.

Desola Davis Because I can qualify people and I can say, “Am I really going to enjoy working with you? Are you going to enjoy what I do?”, Because if you don’t value connecting with your fan base, if you don’t value customer connection, if you are someone who’s just like, “I want to just produce things that people buy, and I really don’t want them to talk to me”, then I’m not your person. You know what I mean? I’m not your person, because everything I’m going to tell you to do is going to involve you connecting with somebody, and everything’s not going to be an automation. So again, if you don’t want to lean into that human connection, I’m not your person. I can tell really quickly, what’s driving you.

And to that point Abby, I’ll say this. For the people that I speak to whenever we get to the money conversation, and their main goal is to make their ROI back like it’s to make their money back. And I know that money is driving them, I already know it’s not a good fit. I made that mistake one time. Never doing it again. Like I learned that the hard way. Even though I knew going into it, it was a bad idea. I made the mistake one time, I’m not doing it again. Because if money is driving that other person and it’s not really just service and optimizing their product and things like that, then we’re not going to be a good fit. And so having the courage knowing that even if this is a “missed opportunity”, that my bills are getting paid, I’m okay, I’m still worthy. That kind of thing allows me to make those types of decisions a lot quicker.

Abby Herman: Yeah. That’s so good. I wanted to talk more about that. So I definitely want to talk about client journey and all of that. But I want to talk about the connection piece because I think that that’s huge.

Desola Davis: Yeah.

Abby Herman: And you and I kind of had some similar, I guess, we did some similar testing with some of the old fashioned type of business, right, where we tried like I joined to BNI that was not a good fit.

Desola Davis: Yeah, you know, I’ve been invited and I’ve gone to a few, maybe almost five, BNI meetings as a visitor and I just couldn’t do it.

Abby Herman: Yeah.

Desola Davis: Couldn’t do it.

Abby Herman: Yeah, I joined. And I mean, I have an online business. BNI is really good for in-person, local-based businesses. I didn’t realize that. I thought, “Oh, well, I’ll get some local clients”. Well, local clients, I live in Phoenix, people are pretty cheap. They just want the bare bones that are not going to work for them. And I joined in, I don’t remember what year it was. But I left early because my daughter got accepted to a high school where I was going to have to drive her back and forth. It was like 40 minutes to an hour to drive. And I was like, “Oh, darn, it’s during that time. I can’t come to meetings anymore!”

Desola Davis: “Dang it! I wish I could stay!” Yeah, yeah, I get that.

Abby Herman: I know. We talked a little bit as well before I hit record about trying to find those people, right. Like you’re trying to find your people, you’re trying to find those great connections. You’re a people person, I am guessing you’re an extrovert. I am not at all. But I still see the value in that connection. Because you want to have that close group. Can you talk a little bit about, just relationships in the business that you’ve built? And what that connection looks like and how you found it?

Desola Davis: Yeah. So I’ll say like, as an extrovert, I appreciate introverts My brother is an introvert to a fault. Like he’s as much an introvert as much as I am an extrovert, and we’re best friends. So it’s possible. And I think the friendship is mostly driven by me, but it’s fine. And I’ll speak to the introverts first. Whenever you’re thinking about a relationship, it’s really a way to, I would say, maybe organic, maybe free, or cheap, or whatever. But it’s really a way to extend yourself without spending money, right, if we’re thinking about it from a business perspective. It’s a way to extend yourself. If you have key relationships, they’re able to lend their social proof so that you can have more of an audience. It helps increase your visibility without, for example, paying for social media ads, like if your friend or your key relationship that serves a similar audience says, “Hey, you need to go check Abby out. You need to go see what they’re doing because I believe in them. And I think that you know, you like me and I served you well, you know that I’m just not going to bring you somebody crazy. Go check her out”. You don’t have to do as much work to convince them that you’re a good solution for them. And so that’s what relationships can do for you.

And I’ll say again, to the introverts, because I’ve realized that like we all flock together, if you’re an extrovert, you’re likely hanging out with a lot more extroverts. If you’re an introvert, a lot of introverts are probably listening to you. If you’re an introvert, and the thought of like, you know, I don’t know if if you’re taking courses on things like Instagram, that’s where I spend most of my time. And they’re saying things like, “follow 10 people every week, and comment everywhere” see, like, and I wish you guys could see Abby’s face. But “put 25 comments on your customers-” and all of those things just make your skin crawl as they should, because that’s not your personality, I would say find one person that you know you can unequivocably add value to now, that’s it. One person that you can add value to and go offer that value for nothing in return. That’s what I would say. And there are so many things that happen.

When you’re coming in and you don’t have anything to sell, you’re not looking for what you haven’t written in your goal sheet. I know that with this contact, I’m gonna make 20 sales and blah, blah, it really is just like, “Hey, I know you serve this audience. This is something that I can bring to your audience. What do you feel about me creating a resource that they can use? No strings attached, let me know about that”. And then start the conversation from there. And think of it also as an investment. If that’s a person that you want to invest in, then you are doing things like following them, watching their stories, maybe just double-tapping the light, you don’t have to put a comment in there. But you’re double-tapping to say, Hey, that was really cool that what you said or whatever. Maybe once every couple of weeks, send them a DM and just be like, “Hey, I really like you know the content you’re putting out blah, blah, blah”, and then kind of strike up that conversation and offer them something.

So the way that that works is for you- It gives you the warm fuzzies because you did something good for somebody without expecting anything in return. But then for the other person, they start to see your value. And because you’re saying no strings attached, because people are used to that whole Cold dm thing where people send them like, “Hey girl, how are you doing? Will you buy my thing?” And it’s like, I’ve never- how did you get into my DMS anyway, right? So your offer is going to be a welcome change, and it’s going to get them to stop and start researching you. Because guess what? Whatever you offer them is going to be valuable. And they’re going to be like “man I really want to use it. But let me just make sure that they’re not a crazy person”, they’re gonna then check out your website, then they’re going to check out your content, and things like that. So what you’re expecting, that connection, you’ll be able to make it with them more organically. So finding more opportunities to do things for people without expecting things in return, is going to help expand your network in a more organic way. Because even if they say, “you know what, no, I don’t really want to just, you know, stranger danger, I don’t want whatever”. If you maintain that relationship with them, they’re going to introduce you to somebody else that probably will enjoy your product.

Abby Herman: Yeah. And to piggyback on that too, several years ago I hired somebody to help me with some of my own marketing pieces. And like, some of the other things that I can do to help grow my business. And one of the things I was doing a lot of at the time was I was doing like virtual coffee chats, where I would just call people and I mean, I met so many great people there. And so this person I hired she asked me, “Well, how do you determine who you’re getting on calls with?” I’m like, “well people I think I would like”

Desola Davis: Yeah,

Abby Herman: And she said, “well, that’s not very strategic. I’m like,

Desola Davis: Yes, it actually is.

Abby Herman: “I don’t care!”

Desola Davis: But it is because if it’s people you like, then you’re likely aligned in value with them.

Abby Herman: Yeah!

Desola Davis: That working with them or collaborating with them, it’s going to be much easier than somebody who you’ve never met, or someone who you’re not sure about because then you’re able to show up as your authentic self. And whoever they get, like, face to face is who they know is going to, you know, present themselves to their audience. And your time is priceless. Why would you want to spend your time with someone that you don’t like?

Abby Herman: Yes, exactly.

Desola Davis: For business?

Abby Herman: Exactly.

Desola Davis: That doesn’t any sense. That is very strategic. Like I’m kind of over the whole thing about doing things that you don’t like because that’s just like the nature of business. It’s like, or you could just be somebody’s employee where they pay you consistently, you don’t have to go out and, like, hunt and kill your own food. And you can sit there and do things that you don’t like, and I’m not saying everything in business is going to be great. But if it’s not essential, like bookkeeping, and taxes, if it’s where you choose to spend your time, by golly, can we spend our time doing things that we like, and that actually add value to us in our lives?

Abby Herman: Mm-hmm.

Desola Davis: You know, so that’s my policy. I think it’s very strategic. I mean, I just love everything about human connection. I love growing a business that has key customer relationships, as well as key partnerships with other entrepreneurs because it makes selling so much easier for me.

Abby Herman: Yeah, I think it makes it makes selling easier. And it also expands our, like you said, it expands our network because it makes selling easier because we don’t know those people are who are in those people’s circles.

Desola Davis: Right.

Abby Herman: And yeah, and we get insights from people in very different fields, very different businesses, very different backgrounds, which I think is so important.

Desola Davis: Yeah.

Abby Herman: Because we all live in our little especially, you know, especially right now like,

Desola Davis: Yeah, our little bubbles.

Abby Herman: but yeah, little bubbles or little house bubbles. And yeah, I love the idea of just getting out there and meeting new people. And people that you align with your values and your beliefs aligned with so.

Desola Davis: And if anything, the more people you know, the more valuable you become to your people. Because if they’re like, “Hey, does anyone know someone who solves this problem?” You flip your Rolodex and you say, “as a matter of fact, I do. I had a coffee chat with them. And I liked that. And I spent time with somebody that I like. And I know that they’re going to serve you really well. Here’s a referral.”

Abby Herman: Yes. Which is one of the things I love about hosting a podcast is that I feel like it’s an in for me. I do a lot of I do some cold pitching. I don’t generally, almost never do I accept cold pitches to me to be on my podcast.

Desola Davis: But you do other people.

Abby Herman: I pitch other people. I’m like, “Hey, I don’t know you but. I’ve seen this and this, and would you be on my podcast?”, so.

Desola Davis: That’s hilarious, I love it.

Abby Herman: I love it because it gives me an in.

Desola Davis: It really does. I love it. And that’s why I love podcasts interviews because it gives me an opportunity to get to know people a little bit better and I’m here for conversation so.

Abby Herman: Yeah, I love it. So one of the things that you talk about is that there’s always room. You talk about competition and how they’re not really your competition, and I have to say so we’re going to get to it. We’re going to talk about customer journey and you’re going to be part of the Content Experiment Summit talking about customer journey.

Desola Davis: Yeah!

Abby Herman: I actually, I actually have a downloadable all about customer journey. And it’s a workbook. I have a masterclass that I sell, you know, around customer journey.

Desola Davis: I love that.

Abby Herman: But yet you’re here because you know what? The way you do it is so different from the way I talk about it. And so I want to talk about that a little bit and avoiding competition, finding that secret sauce that, you know that we all have in the way that we do things. Can you talk a little bit about that and your thought process behind it?

Desola Davis: I’d love to. This is fantastic, I love this so much. And I hope we have time to do a little experiment, because now… now I’m curious. We need to talk about your customer journey thing, too. So here’s the thing about secret sauce. Everybody has one, like we talked about, right? Your secret sauce is the thing that drives the way you provide service to your people. Right? It is the undercurrent of why you started your business to begin with. It is your superpower, the thing that you do without even thinking. But it’s the thing that kind of is interwoven in the way that you process or you package and present your products. And it is the most underestimated asset in your business.

Because you think to yourself, “no way people are going to pay me to do that I do that, like I don’t even have to prepare to do that. I don’t have to work hard to do that. I don’t have to-“, you know, for some of my clients, so it’s one client that I had, literally her secret sauce is creating solutions where there were no solutions before. She is like a resource Queen, right? She has a resource for everything, there is a template for everything, there’s a tutorial for everything, it literally makes your process so much more efficient and so much easier to implement. Because whatever question you have, if it wasn’t already in the product, it will be in the product by the end of the week, because that’s what she does. And there are some people who, if they wanted to hire her if they wanted her help, or if they had a problem that she solved, all they want is for someone who’s like, I don’t want to create it myself, I don’t want to learn it, I don’t want anything, give me a template, so I can just tweak it and go. And those are the people she needs to be talking to.

Now if someone else was more of a, I do it for you, or I coach you through it, those aren’t their people. So like they’re looking for a coach that’s going to hold their hand every step of the way. That’s not your person. So you can’t sit there and be like, Oh, well so and so’s doing way more than me. It’s like no, if you’re the resource Queen, and no one can out resource you then sit in that let people know that there is a resource for everything. Because guess what, there are people that are just like, I just need templates, I don’t need a coach, I don’t need someone to hold my hand, and I don’t have the funds to pay somebody to do it for me. Because that’s really where I’m headed. Like, if I didn’t have to do it myself, then I would just pay someone to do it. But I don’t have $15,000. So Can someone just hook me up with a template because like, it’s cool to sit here and watch the course. But I really don’t want to design this thing by myself. So if I can get a template, that’d be great. Those are your people.

And so you need to have that conversation with those people to say, “Hey, I’m the person you’re looking for. Work with me”, and speak their language. For other people. You know, there’s someone that I’ve spoken to her secret sauce was the fact that she has to add a live component like there has to have there has to be a human connection component into the way she serves her people. Even if it’s a course, she thrives and she adds value by that live human component. After our conversation, she added a live human component into the way she packaged her course and ended up getting like for a product that she was hoping to get maybe like five or 10 people into ended up getting almost 40 or maybe over 40 people. By adding that little piece in there. And again, like I said, this isn’t something that you think of. You just think like, it’s just the way I do things. but that is the thing, the thing that’s “just the way you do things,” and the thing that’s your pet peeve when it comes to other people in your industry is legit. What helps you with your secret sauce. And so

Abby Herman: I love talking about pet peeves.

Desola Davis: Like if you need a hint, whatever, what is your pet peeve when it comes to the way other people talk about your industry? That’s your secret sauce and you need to really lean into that and let people know like, just because that’s how they’re talking about it doesn’t mean that that’s- like for me I keep telling people the customer journey doesn’t end with the sale because a lot of times When it’s taught, it’s taught that the customer journey ends with a sale, just design a customer journey, get them to buy from you. And you’re done.

Abby Herman: Yeah.

Desola Davis: Not even close, you just started. So, um, so that’s one of my pet peeves. And that’s something that I talk to my people about. So yeah, I mean, I think that for people who don’t lean into their secret sauce, that’s when they start looking at what their competition is doing, and mirroring what that is. And it’s like, well, if you mirror that, if they’re already doing it, they’re always going to be better than you. So instead of that, you need to lean into what makes you different. And capitalize on that. And also listen to what people will say when they’re when they talk about you, right? When they say, hey, you’re different, you do X, Y, and Z thing. lean into that, do more of it.

Like for me, I what I didn’t realize is I do really well as an extrovert. I do really well in live, things, in podcasts and like that kind of thing. And so I love teaching, I love having conversations on podcasts, I love doing group things. I love doing summits, it’s why I love doing summit, is because it gives me an opportunity to reach many people at a time. It doesn’t mean that I don’t do great one to one. But that’s why I now have a group program. Because now I can teach people in the magic that I bring into those group activities, they can benefit from it, and they can have an even more, more amazing transformation for their problems. So yeah, lean into your secret sauce, there literally is no competition. For me and you and that’s why I said let’s do an experiment for me. And you likely all of your people are going to be like, No, I want Abby’s customer journey stuff. But for me, if I’m explaining how I’m teaching customer journey, and someone connects to that they were always my customer. They weren’t yours to begin with. And you don’t need to fight for them.

Abby Herman: Exactly. Yes. Well, I think you and I talk about customer journey, I think in a very different way because mine is all content-based. So yeah, the content that you need on each step of the customer journey, your sounds product-based, like what are the products that are going to help walk somebody through that journey with you? So yes, it’s customer journey. But it’s two totally different things. Totally different ways. Mine is, you know, the marketing side, yours is the product side. And so yeah, so we’re not competitors. And I could learn a lot by hiring you and working with you through the process, and vice versa.

Desola Davis: And vice versa. And what that tells me because here’s the thing, what happens with especially online business, now, I want to say this to the listeners too, you don’t have to lose for someone else to win. Like we can all win together. And it’s so funny that you said that, because for other people, it’s like, “oh, well, you have a customer journey thing, too. So now I can’t have a customer journey, because you’ve already cornered the market on tha”t. And that’s a complete lie. Even if you were doing customer journey based on products, we were both doing “the same thing”, the way you deliver it is gonna be way different from how I deliver it, the words that I use, the framework that you use, all of those things are going to be different. And you’re absolutely right, for someone who has a content problem for someone who already understands their product journey, fully is aligned, that kind of thing. And they just don’t know how to communicate it. That’s an Abby thing. That’s not me, I am not a copywriter. I do not like to write copy. And that’s just not my thing. I like writing in general, but I don’t want to write copy for someone else. Right?

Abby Herman: Right.

Desola Davis: And I don’t want to teach someone else how to write their own copy, I just need to tell them that this is what their product journey is. And this is the type of message that you need to share. And you need to hand that over to a copywriter who’s skilled in writing those things. But yeah. You know what I mean? And then for you with content, for someone if they come to you, and they don’t have a clear product journey. It’s like, I can’t I can’t help you because I’m confused.

Abby Herman: Yeah, You can’t sell what you don’t already have.

Desola Davis: I’m confused. I can’t serve you. You need to go get a clear product training before you start worrying about your content.

Abby Herman: Yeah,

Desola Davis: That’s how that works.

Abby Herman: Yes. Can we talk about the that product journey. I want to talk about that because it’s fascinating to me. And I want to talk about like that next step after the sale also. But yeah, can you walk us through, like what that customer journey should look like? It’s not just about selling the thing, the signature product or whatever, what does that look like to kind of map that out for someone?

Desola Davis: For sure. So there are several ways we can do it with products. What happens is, for example, let’s use this podcast. Someone may not have heard of me before, right? And you’ve invited me to your podcast and we’re having a conversation. They’re like, “Who is this Desola person?” And maybe they heard that I was on somebody else’s podcast, or maybe they saw me on someone else’s Instagram. And so they checked me out at this point. They’re a stranger, okay. They don’t know me. I don’t know them. They’re a stranger. Then they come into my audience. They decide that they want To follow me on Instagram, so they become an audience member. And so I’m, you know, talking and sharing my stuff on Instagram, or maybe they see that I’m selling something. And so they click into my lead magnet to join my email community. At this point, they become a prospect, right, they’re starting to check me out. And I’m one of the few options that they want to use. And then they decided, “you know what, I really love what Desola is saying, I’ve seen everything I need to see, I’m going to buy from her”, they then become my customer.

At that point, it is still my responsibility to deliver on what I promised and to actually serve them with the product that I’ve spent all of this time trying to sell. And after that, I can invite them to an additional part of the journey where they become my ambassador, after I’ve solved their primary problem with the transformation, they still have new problems to solve. And for as long as I can remain a solution to them, as long as I can remain relevant to their vision of success, they will remain in my sales community. They will remain a customer on a customer journey, and they will eventually become an ambassador. What that looks like for products is, as we just talked about stranger to audience, that first product or that first meeting is going to be you know, this type of podcast. So like whatever that lead magnet or that lead in is, is going to be that outside source.

But when they become an audience member, if you want to transition them into a prospect, you have a product called a “step zero” product. So this is the product that says, hey, I understand what your problem is. And I think one of the ways that it’s taught out in the community is just make sure that you know, they know that you understand them. Make sure they know that you understand what they need, blah, blah, blah, I take it a step further. And I say not only do you understand them, but your step zero product has to reframe their problem for them. So that they see the possibility of a solution. Right? So it’s not enough to just be like, “Oh, yeah, I get it, you don’t have you know, you don’t have the right content to pull people into a customer journey”. They don’t need somebody to commiserate with them. They need somebody to say “yes, despite the problem that you have, you can fix this”, and not just “you can fix it with my product. Do you want to buy it? Do you want to buy it? Do you want to buy it?” No, it’s just, “this is a fixable problem, and you have the capacity to fix it”. Because for someone who has a problem, it takes the power away from them. And the way you reframe that problem for them gives that power back, it says “you know what, I can do this, this is not something I have to live with for the rest of my life, we can fix this”.

And so that’s what your step zero product does, when they become your prospect. At this point, you’re now no longer just the person down the fair where they pick up your tchotchke and put it down and walk up to another person in the fair and pick up their tchotchke. You’re one of three to five, max, options that they’re really looking at to solve this problem. And so their question at that point is, “can you solve the problem?”. So your goal is to show them in so many ways that you are capable of solving their problem. And you use that a baby step product for that. So step zero gets them from audience to prospect, a baby step product, get some from prospect customer. And what a baby step product does is it gives them a quick win in one area of their problem, right. And so this may be a paid product, it may be a webinar, which I don’t like because I think webinars are being done all wrong. A webinar really should solve a problem versus just selling a product. And so if the webinar standalone cannot be of value, regardless of whether they’re selling, whether you’re selling a product, then you just need to scrap your webinar. So there’s that. But it could be a low cost pay product or a masterclass or a webinar or in some cases, it may be your podcast, right? Because it has in it has so many so many resources and so much information that they can see that you’re establishing authority in this product problem that they want to solve.

And so when they become your customer, the question for them when your job as you’re transitioning them from prospect to customer is again to continue to give that power back to them. So your answer is yes, I can solve your problem. Yes, this is my zone of genius. But really and truly, you’re the one who’s going to be solving your problem. I’m just along for the ride to guide you through it. Every victory that you get every every progress that you make, is your doing. I didn’t do this for you. And even in the done for you type thing. Yes, I created it. But I created it because of your vision. You’re the one who said you wanted to do it this way. And all I did was bring your vision to fruition. It is always about you. This is your story. I’m just helping guide you through it. So you’re reframing that question to you “No, not only can I solve your problem, you’re going to be able to solve your own problem. But with my help, alright”. And so as a customer, then that’s your, when you get to that product side, I know I’m talking about several different players in this game.

But we talked about step zero going to baby step, now you’re at your high step, lockstep product. So your high step product is your signature program that delivers the transformation that helps them solve their problem with your help. What happens after that is they have new problems. And so they turn back to you and they say, what other problems can we solve together? So after meeting their need, you still can be relevant to them by solving additional problems for them as an ambassador for your product. Now they can, as ambassadors,actually talk back to your prospects and say, “Hey, I was just like you. I had this problem. And this is what I did to solve it with Abby’s help”. And those are the types of testimonials you need. You don’t need a testimonial that says something like, “Abby is amazing. You need to hire her.” Why? Why? Why do I need to hire her? Yeah, “she’s wonderful. I just love Abby”, says nothing about your product. Or, you know, when people are talking about like, “Oh, I took Abby’s course you need to get you know, you take Abby’s course or I’m in Abby’s membership, you need to be in Abby’s membership”. Why? Why? And why should I believe you because you have said nothing to me, that makes me feel like she can help me.

But if an ambassador comes back and says, “Hey, I was just like you, I don’t know, first thing about content writing. As a matter of fact, it makes me want to pull all the hair out of my head. And when I talked to Abby, Abby gave me one strategy that I could commit to for four weeks, and I saw a growth in my email list from 100 to 150 people in 30 days, I’ve never experienced that growth. In all three years of my business”. I’m in. Yeah, I got the 79 email subscribers. I’m trying to get to 100. You mean, I can get 50 additional subscribers if I joined Abby’s membership? Where’s that sales page? That’s what that does.

Abby Herman: How do you get those testimonials that do that, though? Because, you know, I have a form, an air table form that I send out and ask for testimonials from time to time. I have it attached to some of the follow up sequences for a lot of my freebies and things like that as well. How do you get those really juicy testimonials that actually give like showcase the value of what you offer?

Desola Davis: So that’s a good question. First of all, you need to be looking for them. That’s what I would say. You need to be looking for them.

Abby Herman: Looking for?

Desola Davis: The testimonials.

Abby Herman: Okay.

Desola Davis: And so there are different places that they show up. And there are several things that you need to do before, before you even get there. First, when they’re at the customer level, you need to know exactly when they’re going to achieve the transformation. Because remember, in all of the the whole journey thing that we just talked about going from stranger to audience to prospect to customer to ambassador, and then them going moving through your prospects, the only expert in this whole scene is you. Because you’re the one who sees the transformation from a global perspective, because you’re the one facilitating so when they become your customer, and you need to know about the time, they should have achieved transformation with your product, you need to know like, “Okay, if I have a course, if they listen to this module, and they implement this module, they should be able to get some results. How long is it going to take for them to get to that module? Is that module one, is that module two? Is that something that you need to guide them to, to make sure that they actually take it because you know how impactful it is?”

If you think about like, you know, a personal trainer, they already know, like if they can follow the seven day sequence of workouts and food, on average, my customers typically lose two pounds after seven days. So what do I do? I guide them through the seven days, but then I ask them after seven days, hey, weigh yourself, we have your starting weight. Let me know what your current weight is because you’re fully expecting that that’s going to go down. And so that’s what your job is, is you need to know exactly about the time that that’s going to happen. And then you need to check back with them, to see how that’s going, to make sure that they don’t have any questions, and to guide them to that to that quick win.

What happens is sometimes as a creator, we think our only job is to deliver the course or our only job is to welcome them to the to the membership, give them a guide, and then wish them all the best. But as someone who had the problem and still doesn’t have a good grasp of what the solution looks like, you still need to guide them along the way until they’re able to pick up the ball on their own. It’s like for someone who’s looking at a picture and it’s really blurry, you’re holding the frame until it comes into full view for them. So once they get to that quick win you come in and you say “hey, let me know what that win was. Tell me a little bit about that”. And find a way also to understand where they were before. You really want them to be talking about where they were before, what this win is, and what they did in between. And so that’s how you kind of frame that testimonial. And then you ask for it.

Abby Herman: Yeah,

Desola Davis: Literally, you guide them to ask for it, because we talked about this offline, but a testimonial is a continuation of your story and their words. So the story has to match. Right? If the story doesn’t match what’s going on on your sales page, and you need to take a quick, hard look at the transformation you’re promising, because that may not be the transformation that your people are getting. Which is okay, because they’re getting some type of transformation, and they love you for something. You just need to, you need to then reframe, or rephrase, what transformation you’re actually delivering to your people so that you can attract more people who love you for it.

Abby Herman: Well, and I love too, just the value to you, as the business owner, to get that testimonial, if you are hyper focused on when they should be getting the transformation, and you’re asking for the testimonial, then you can see if there’s a breakdown. It’s a lot easier to see if there’s a breakdown. And if they’re not getting what they need, you then could make the shifts and changes and provide additional value or change, you know, change up things on the program to help them actually get that transformation that they paid for, that they’re expecting and all of that. So I think it’s definitely twofold. I love it. So you have a you have a free downloadable for this.

Desola Davis: I do, I do.

Abby Herman: To help us with this, right?

Desola Davis: Yes. If you go to, super simple. You will get a download that gives you a few questions that you can add to- I know you said you have an air table link. So you can add it to your air table form or your Google form or whatever, to ask the right questions to get those testimonials. And it also has an email template that helps you ask for the testimonials the right way.

Abby Herman: I love that because so many people think you know, they’re afraid of “how am I supposed to ask for this? How do I ask?” I love that oyu have a template for that.

Desola Davis: So head over to, download it. I would also love for you to find me on Instagram @DesolaDavis. Let me know that you downloaded it and let me know that you heard you heard me on Abby’s podcast because I just want to know where all my people are coming from.

Abby Herman: Yes, definitely. And I will have the links to all of that in the show notes. I so appreciate you being here. I’m so excited to have you on the summit. And anyone who is listening you can get on the waiting list for the summit, a link will be in the show notes as well. So thank you so much.

Desola Davis: Thank so much for having me. This was great.

Abby Herman: Thank you so much for listening into today’s episode. Like I said in the intro, Desola is a powerhouse of knowledge and passion when it comes to client journey and watching her clients succeed. And I have a feeling that came across just so in the episode. I cannot wait to see what she pours into you on her presentation at the content experiment summit. Be sure to get on the waiting list at

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