Creating memorable presentations has always been an important part of business. But how do you create a compelling and engaging experience for your audience when you can’t stop staring at your own face on Zoom?
Today on the podcast, I’m talking with Mike Ganino, public speaking and storytelling pro, about bringing energy to your presentations, creating a personalized connection with your audience, and three easy adjustments you can make right now to become a presentation professional.
Mike will be speaking at The Content Experiment Summit in March 2021, and I cannot wait! Sign up to get on the waiting list so you can be one of the first to register. Registration opens in late February. If you’re listening to this episode after the fact, you can sign up to be on the waiting list for the next round!
Listen in!
Mentioned in This Episode
About Mike Ganino
Mike Ganino is a storytelling and communication expert who hosts The Mike Drop Moment podcast. He is an author, former Executive Producer of TEDxCambridge and has been named a Top 30 Speaker by Global Guru. With a background in acting and improv comedy, Mike now teaches businesses and entrepreneurs how to tell a good story. Mike’s worked with organizations like the Disney, American Marketing Association, UCLA, and Uber.
To learn more about how to have your own #MikeDrop moment, follow Mike on Instagram and Facebook, or visit his website.
In our conversation, Mike shines some light on the Zoom fatigue we’re all experiencing (what he says about it makes SO much sense and I hadn’t thought about the WHY before…it’s not just that we’re sitting on our butts in front of a computer all the time), why some of us are having a difficult time transitioning to online speaking, the mistakes you’re making in your virtual presentations and how to break down the barriers between yourself and your audience.
Transcript
Abby Herman
Hey there, and welcome to Episode 97 of the stories in small business podcast, a podcast experience that puts to rest the idea that we all need to do business the same way and celebrates the unique stories and paths that we’re all on. I’m Abby Herman, content strategist and coach for online business owners who are ready to make a bigger impact online. I’m here because when I first went full time in my business in 2013, I really struggled to find the help and support I needed to figure out what the heck I was doing so I could grow my business. My business is the sole income in my household, and I struggled hard. I vowed to myself that if I was able to grow, I would be a resource to other business owners when I could afford to do so this podcast is just part of that journey. If you’re new to the podcast, I am so glad you’re here. Welcome. I work really hard to bring you informative and to the point content, because let’s face it, no one has time for fluff these days, or ever. If you like what you hear, hit the subscribe button so you don’t miss another episode. I usually release episodes every Monday morning and every other Thursday morning. However, as we prepare for the content experiment summit coming up in March, My plan is to release two and three times a week, every week until March 15. It’s a lot. And while I love podcasting, and I love these interviews so much, leaving a five-star rating and a review would mean so much to me and would be kind of like you know, just sticking that dollar in the tip jar. So please do that.
And today’s episode is a really good one, you need to stop what you’re doing right now. Like stop walking your dog, stop driving your car, stop, you know, cleaning your house, whatever you’re doing, get out a notebook and get ready to take some notes seriously, I’m talking with Mike Ganino, a storytelling and communication expert. And you know that because he’s here on the podcast right now he’s one of the amazing speakers at the summit. he teases some of his amazing talk during the interview and gives you some really helpful tips on how you can make your online presentations better. Shoot, you can use his tips for an everyday zoom call too. I have already. Let me tell you a little bit about the summit Before we get into Mike’s interview. The summit features 25 speakers who are sharing bite-sized tips and tricks on how to get a better ROI on their time and financial investments in content and marketing. It’s designed specifically for coaches and course creators. Because maybe what you’re doing isn’t quite working for you. Either you’re confused about what to create, or what you are creating and publishing isn’t giving you the results that you want. Maybe you want to start using a new platform or tool but you don’t know how to do that. We’ve got you covered in the content experiment. The free summit features speakers on topics like automation strategy, online events, email marketing, content operations, selling with affiliates, honing your messaging, using podcasts to grow your business, customer journey, content, accessibility and so much more. And many of the speakers are people who you maybe haven’t heard from over and over and over and over again, I’m hoping to introduce you to some new powerhouses that give you permission to do things just a little bit different. If you’ve been following me for a while, you know that that is important to me. You can sign up for the waiting list right now at the content experiment.com slash summit. Registration begins on February 26. For the waitlist only at special pricing for those of you who choose to upgrade to the All Access Pass. And when you see what these speakers are giving away and the all access pass, you’re going to want to do that. Are you wondering who those speakers are going to be?
Well, everyone who has been on the podcast since the first of this year is on the speaker lineup, along with today’s guest, Mike Ganino. In our conversation might shine some light on the Zim fatigue that we’re all experiencing. And what he says about it makes so much sense and I hadn’t even thought about the why before. It’s not just that we’re sitting on our butts in front of the computer all the time. You have to listen to find out more. He also shares why some of us are having a difficult time transitioning to online speaking, the mistakes you’re making in your virtual presentations, and how to break down the barriers between yourself and your audience. It is good you need to listen. Now let me quickly tell you more about Mike so we can get on to the interview. Mike Ganino is a storytelling and communication expert who hosts the mic drop moment podcast. He’s an author, former executive producer of TEDx can bridge and has been named a top 30 speaker by global guru. He teaches storytelling presence and public speaking to some of the biggest names and brands. He’s a trained actor and coach from the world-famous Second City, improv Olympics, and Upright Citizens Brigade, in addition to his track record, as an executive in the hotel, restaurant, retail, and tech industries. Mike’s work worked with organizations like Disney American Marketing Association, UCLA, UCLA, and Uber. Without further ado, let’s hear from Mike Ganino. Hi, Mike, thank you so much for joining me today.
Mike Ganino
Thank you for having me. It’s so I’m always, you know, I say that I would show up at the opening of an envelope. And when someone actually invites me to do something very cool. I think it’s such an honor. So thank you for having me here.
Abby Herman
Well, thanks. Yeah. I’m excited to have you in to chat today. I’m really excited to have you on the summit coming up in March. Yeah. So that is exciting. And before we get started and dive in, can you share with listeners what you do and who you do it for?
Mike Ganino
Yeah, well, many days of the week, I feed and change a newborn. Yeah, she’s all over Instagram. And when I’m not doing that, I work with entrepreneurs, leaders in organizations like Disney and banking institutions and things like that, to help them shine in the spotlight, whether that spotlight is on stage, where they’re giving a keynote address, or they’re giving a workshop, or they need to be in front of their people, or they’re creating their own event, or whether it is on video. And obviously, the video thing in the year of 2020 became a much bigger need for people. And all of a sudden people said, Wait a second, I need to be able to deliver my content on video. And I need to do it in an engaging way. That gets attention that keeps people watching all the way through. And that’s what I help them do. I help them use all the skills I learned over the years, not only as a public speaker but as an actor, as a performer, as a writer in the world of improv comedy and sketch to deliver compelling, interesting, engaging content every time they hit record.
Abby Herman
Yes, that’s awesome. And I totally want to get into that, especially with video and the whole, everybody’s working from home thing. But before we do that, can you share a little bit about exactly what that looks like for you to work with clients, and how that helps you to live the lifestyle that you want, because you’ve got a little one at home, a brand new little one at home. So what does that look like?
Mike Ganino
That really creates a concern for you right now. Like, I work on Mondays. Right? Yeah, I kind of just like Bumble through the day. And I’m like, Okay, I got it here. My, my husband is a VP of product for a food company. So he still has to go to work because food is essential, even if it’s snack food. And so he still goes to work a significant amount of time. And so most of the time I like how do I do it all? It’s asking him like, Is there any way you could be home from 10 to 11. So I can do this or that. But in general, what I do with folks is, you know, there’s some spot check things, people will hire me for a session to work with them on a specific keynote, on a specific TEDx session, something like that. But a lot of the work I do is more long term work. So I have a group coaching program, I have a program called certified original, that is a group program that’s all about showing up and knowing how to be a certified original, instead of a copy of what you saw someone else do on video or on stage. So that’s the way I work with a lot of people. And then I do VIP days, they look a little bit different in COVID than they used to, they used to look really lovely people would fly to Los Angeles where I live, they would either get the Hollywood treatment, or they would get the beachy vibe treatments. So they’d either stay at a bungalow in Santa Monica or a hotel penthouse in Hollywood. And then we would spend a day really working through like, how do they shine when the lights are on whether it’s, you know, studio lights, or whether it is on a big stage. And then I work a lot with people on the messaging side of it as well. So what are they trying to do? What are they trying to say, when an organization is going through a change? I’ll work with the executive team and the marketing team on how to change all of that. And yeah, so So typically, these days, it’s coaching either in a group format or one on one.
Abby Herman
I feel like the Certified Original Group Program is something that a lot of people need.
Mike Ganino
To know what’s really fun about it is that it’s um, it’s a dual thing. So people go through when they’re there. There’s recorded programs. So there’s voice class, is that’s like the number one thing people don’t realize is like, you have this voice that can do all this amazing stuff. And yet you show up and you just do this one thing with it, and then you try to get it’s just not how we communicate when we want people to stay engaged and so, so there’s pre-recorded content that you can go back to that you can watch again that You can, you know, go daily, really to the vocal work every time you get on a podcast. Before I started recording with you today, I did five minutes of like, my vocal warm-ups, I’m next door to me in this office building is a law office. And I’m sure that they’re like, What is he doing over there, burger chicken every day. But it’s helpful, you know, it’s warming up those vocal cords. And so there’s pre-recorded content that people go through, they do the work. And then there are a couple of group sessions a week. So there’s like an open coaching session. And then there are these specific critique calls where people can submit it in advance. So they can submit it in advance a video and opening a story that they’re going to use their message mapping, and we review it live. And it’s just so much fun. And people get to learn from each other. So I’m loving it. So yeah, that’s super fun.
Abby Herman
That sounds like a really powerful way to get some extra practice with your talking, your speech, your podcast, interviews, your videos, whatever. So I love that you have that kind of live review. Yeah. And well, especially in a safe space, where it kind of takes some of the nerves away, hopefully.
Mike Ganino
And everyone has the same language. So so that’s like the thing of like, oh, did you do these? Here are the five things we try to do in a video. Here’s what we try to do at the opening. And so everyone gets the same language. So instead of people sharing feedback with each other even that’s like, well, I don’t know, I didn’t like that you did this, or I didn’t like that. You said that. There’s the actual framework that we’re saying, oh, at the opening? Did you do X, Y, and Z with your voice? How many times did you modulate and you know, the different thing so it creates a space where it’s like, okay to grow? Because it’s not so personal of like, Well, I didn’t like how you found it. I didn’t like that story. It’s like, no, we’re gonna rate the things based on this framework that I’ve taught you. And so because it’s so rare the rest of our lives, like, even if you work in corporate, you don’t get feedback on presentation skills. And if you do, it’s usually someone’s personal pet peeves. I see people all the time, like, Well, my boss doesn’t like it when I do this. And I think well, your boss is wrong, because it’s actually quite effective, the thing you’re doing, and we just don’t ever get feedback on how we present and show up and even college classes. What they teach you is like the method for putting it together, and but they don’t teach you how to be compelling and engaging, and enchanting in front of an audience.
Abby Herman
Yeah, yeah, the practice really helps. And so let’s talk about going back to like, everybody’s on video, right now everybody’s trying to be heard, we can’t go to in-person events, or at least very limited in-person events. Technology, thankfully, has made it really easy for us to get put, thankfully, and maybe to our detriment, makes it really easy for us to be accessible and to put ourselves out there. But I know that there are drawbacks to that as well. Can you talk a little bit about how accessible we all are to everyone right now? And maybe some of the pros and the cons to that?
Mike Ganino
Yeah, it’s, you know, we’ve obviously all seen these articles and these posts and these Tick Tock videos about zoom fatigue. And it’s really, and it’s a real thing, and it’s not just I think people hear the zoom fatigue thing. And they think like, Oh, yeah, it’s just like, being on a camera all day. But it’s actually like, if you think about it, if you think about having five or six people on a screen, in a normal room, if we were in a room together, and there were five or six of us, we would shift our energy, we would look over at this person, we would look at the whiteboard, we would do this and that and the other. Even if you do that, on this camera, I can’t tell it looks like you’re always looking at me. So if we’ve got five or six people in a meeting here, no matter what you’re doing, even if you’re listening to another person speak, it looks like you’re looking at me.
So that is part of the fatigue is that the entire time we feel watched. And if we think about psychology, if we think about studies that have been done, we know that people change their behavior when they’re watched, usually in a good way, we usually act, we do better things when we know we’re being watched. We don’t- we help people, we are kinder, we are nicer, we are more altruistic, when we’re being watched, it changes our behavior. And so now all day long, in every meeting, we feel like we’re being watched, even if you’re listening to another speaker, even if you on your screen are looking at my slides, it feels like you’re looking at me because you’re looking at your screen. That’s the part I think that is the zoom fatigue in the irregular meeting room, I don’t have to be on the whole time. If I’m not presenting in a zoom session, I have to be on the whole time otherwise, it looks like I’m not paying attention. And so that’s a big part of it. There’s like there’s that whole piece of it. Outside of that there’s now this like expectation I think that everything all the time is a video that we need to be doing this like all the time we need to be on video every call me this the other day someone Someone said like I’m gonna call you. And I was like, I don’t. How are you gonna? I didn’t get a link and they’re like, No, I’m just gonna call you on your phone and I was like, you’re gonna call me and that’s it. So like, Oh my gosh, novel, thank you. Two years ago, if you had said, I’m going to call you, I’d be like, please don’t like, please don’t call me. But now when someone’s like, I’m just gonna dial your number and call you. And it’s like, and you’re just gonna talk to me, it feels so refreshing.
So there’s, there’s also this expectation now because it’s so accessible because we’ve gotten used to every single thing being on a screen like this, that every single meeting, it’s like watching CNN, 24 hours a day, our work lives, our lives as entrepreneurs is all day long, however long you’re working, doing zoom, and then at night, your family wants to do like a zoom, happy hour, and you’re like, I can’t, I cannot. I’ve been watched all day by people. And so there’s this expectation of it. But at the same time, Abby, because we’re all doing it all the time. We often don’t think it’s special when we turn it on to do something. So when someone is giving a presentation, I’m not picky, I don’t ever, I don’t ever judge someone else, I just think there are little things we can always do to like, kick up our performance, I think standing is really important. If the stakes are high. If it’s just you and I chatting or it’s just a work meeting or it’s a coaching session with the client, then just sit Of course it. But if you’re giving a high stakes presentation, if you’re leading a webinar for your ideal customers, and you’re going to try to sell something at the end, standing, changes your energy quite a bit, good lighting, good angles, all of those things that make a video better. I think we are lazier with because we’re just used to being on video all the time.
What I know is that with a couple of small tweaks, you can really shine and so it’s good for my clients. Because now that everyone’s on video when they get on video, people say whoa, what is that person doing? They’re doing something I’ve never seen before. And it’s just small things because we’ve all gotten a little bit lazy, and unwarranted. Because all day long. We’re on video. So it’s hard to say which one do I need to stand up for? Because it’s just all day? It’s so there are these small things we can do to change it?
Abby Herman
Let’s talk about that. What are they? What are some of the things that you see people not doing the right or not doing? Well? And then what are some of the things that we can do to change that?
Mike Ganino
Yeah. So there’s the easy things, there’s the easy tweaks that don’t require a lot of pre-work. One is stand up. If you’re giving a high stakes presentation, I’m standing up now they can’t see that. But you can I’m standing up now. Because when you think about it when you sit down, right, so everyone kind of imagine you’re sitting down. And now as you sit down, where does your center of gravity go? It goes to your butt, and it sinks back in the chair. That’s kind of your energy zone. Now your energy is pulled away from your audience on the other side. But Hello. But when you stand up, this is getting very adult here, then you stand up, where does that all jump to? You pop it right back up to your audience, your feet are grounded, that you’re not twiddling your feet around on the floor, you’re not spinning them around, you’re not lifting them up and moving them around, your feet are grounded on the floor. And now all of that energy can come from you right to the screen, and it’s not being pulled back into your butt into the chair. If you notice
Abby Herman
Now as you’re describing that, like I’m setting, I can feel that I’m like, Oh, yeah, my energy is in my rear right now. And it’s Yeah, yeah.
Mike Ganino
And again, if you’re just doing a coaching call, if you’re having a podcast conversation, then for sure, sit down, you know, relax, if you’re, you know, chatting with your employees on a weekly meeting. But if you’re presenting something that matters, that is why on almost every show, except for talk shows, they stand, they sit on talk shows to create an experience for you, which is my second point. The reason that Kelly and Ryan on live sit how they sit. The reason that Rachael Ray moves from the kitchen table to the other place to the bar stools, the reason that Oprah has soft white couches, is because it’s communicating something to you, every single thing in that frame is part of it. When we’re in person, we get all of these contextual clues. We walk into a meeting room, if you and I walked into a room and said, oh, let’s go, let’s go meet my client. You get clues immediately when we walk into a room if it’s five people sitting around a big long table, and the room has like minimal decoration, you know, okay, there’s a certain way I need to act in this room. If we walk into a room and there are bright, colorful illustrations, and there are cartoon characters on the wall and people are wearing jeans and polos. You know, I’m taking a different cue here. If we walk into a room, and it is not a sit-down table, it’s a stand-up table and people are standing around models of architecture, we get all of these clues about how we should act in spaces. And yet we forget that when we show up on camera that everything around us is giving clues to the people in the audience and it’s not just which books My background make me look smart. Right? It’s what are the colors? What is the lighting? Like? How is the person framed all of those communicate small things to the audience? So number one is stand up.
Number two is be thoughtful about what your stage, your visual stage on video, what is it saying about you? What is it communicating? And not just what is it saying about you because this is where people start to buy the books, they start to say, Okay, I need Homer’s Odyssey. And I need something from Shakespeare. And I need a Marie Forleo book. And I need a you know, they go and they say which book is going to? It’s not just that it’s also not just what is it say about you, but what is the scene communicate about the energy that’s going to happen there. So here, in my space, I’m very fortunate, I realized that I have an office that we opened before COVID, that has multiple sets because when clients would come in for VIP days, we would shoot video here for them. So we would sit them down in front of the brick wall, we put them in front of the blue wall, we change out the things on the bookshelf. So I have all these sets I can use. But at home, or wherever you’re presenting, think about if I’m doing high stakes, not every conversation, but if I’m doing a high stakes presentation, I’m shooting a video, where can I take my computer or my camera to instead of saying, Well, I do everything here at my desk, why is your desk always the best place for the messenger communicating, it might be perfect for recording a podcast might be perfect for coaching sessions might be perfect for a workshop webinar. But it may not be perfect for a social media video may not be perfect for a keynote presentation. So think about what’s around you. And then the third, and that’s easy, you can move your computer moves, like most of us, and if your computer doesn’t move, then you can get a camera that connects to your computer. And you can move the camera onto a tripod somewhere super cheap options.
And the number three is that most people, most people forget that on video, it is even more important than in person that we think. So if you think through what our job is, when we’re communicating, we’re often trying to do we need to get people’s attention sometimes, we then need to maintain that attention, we then need to impress upon them to create a memory. And when I say impressed, I mean like literal impression like I’m impressing something on your memory. So you remember it I am then going to kind of give you some persuasive tools to get you to see it how I see it. And then I’m going to tell you to do something, I may not always do all five of those, like, if I’m a window at Macy’s, if I’m like a store window at Macy’s, my main job is to get your attention, I don’t have to do the rest of that I don’t have to persuade you to buy the clothes or anything, I just need to get your attention, then you’ll come in and you’ll shop and that’s the job of the shop is to maintain your attention, and then to impress upon you with their beautiful displays or their cool outfits or their salesperson, and then to persuade you to buy something and to take action in a virtual presentation or on a video. Our job is to do that. And the number one mistake I see.
And so hopefully everybody listening to this podcast, you will never do this again, is we spend too much time at the beginning, introducing ourselves introducing the topic. And what we would be much better off doing is trying to grab their attention, grab their attention, get them to say oh my gosh, I never thought of it that way. Or oh my gosh, are they inside of my brain because that’s exactly how I feel every day. And then you could say, and I get it. My name is Mike Ganino. And I teach bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla, I’m just like you and you could do all that after. But our job is to get their attention. And what I see on video is people don’t do that. And they waste the first five or 10 minutes explaining themselves talking thanking the host, whatever it is. And guess what happens on virtual on video, I start looking at my notifications, I start to look at things I turn my camera off, I scroll past you on my tik tok. We’ve got to get attention first. And then we can go back in and do all the other stuff we need. Those are the three things I’d say you can immediately start doing today.
Abby Herman
So the last one the getting and maintaining the intense attention. I think that that is such a huge challenge because of I mean, I’ve got two computer screens here. I forgot to turn off my slack. Before we started talking. I know that I just have to click and I can look at my email. I’ve got my phone over here. I mean, how do you like what can you do to maintain attention throughout your presentation is are there Do you have any tips on what you can do? Because I mean, that’s a struggle. Yeah, in on calls just on, you know, meetings with people and the presentations and all of that it’s a struggle.
Mike Ganino
Well, so think about it when you stop paying attention, and you start to look for something else to do. Why is it typically Why do you divert your attention,
Abby Herman
because it’s not relevant to me because it’s Yeah, because I’m bored because my mind is in 10 other places Because of all the things and I would say,
Mike Ganino
And I would bet, Abby, that for most people, we say that third one, because it’s the nice thing to say, my attention, you know what, there’s so many other things my kids, my dog, my house, my bills, my business, my clients, my this and that. That’s not the real reason. The real reason is you’re boring me and I don’t think this is helpful. We save the third one to be nice. But like, if we’re super, like, I sat down and I watched every single episode of HBO is the undoing in a row. And I didn’t care what I mean, I did stop and feed my daughter along the way. But like, I did not care about my phone, about my messages about my this and my that I sat there. And I watched that. And there’s this whole, you know, you’ve heard probably this thing that people say around like people’s attention span is shorter than a goldfish these days. It’s not true. That’s that every speaker who says that, please stop saying that it is not true. They’ve never studied that the study that people are citing for that did not who would study the attention span of a goldfish, by the way.
Abby Herman
How do you even do that?
Mike Ganino
It’s so silly. It’s wrong. It’s bad science, and it went off. It’s like the whole thing around on public speaking is everyone’s biggest fear. That is untrue. It is that the biggest fear and it’s just the most common fear. So more of us have that fear than other fears. But it’s not the thing we fear the most. And so people hear that wrong because people get onstage and they say it wrong, or they try to sell public speaking programs, and they say it wrong. So the attention thing is the issue. It’s not that people are busy and distracted because people are sitting down and watching 37 episodes of Game of Thrones in a weekend and not even bathing or going to the bathroom. Like this is not the issue our attention shows your stuff is boring. That’s the issue. And so how do you get attention?
Now, you’ll also hear people say things like, there’s a very popular brand that I think works great for websites, it doesn’t work so good for videos or speeches where it’s like, it’s not about your story. It’s about the story of your customer. So then you find people starting a speech or a video with like, Are you the kind of person who does this? Do you find yourself wandering through the Abyss unsure of how to market your business? I know, I’ve been there. And everyone just sounds like an infomercial in their webinars, because that that story framework that you’re learning is great for websites, it’s not great for spoken content. So what we need to do to get their attention is a story that gets them to say, like, I wonder how this is going to end? Or what are they going to do next to people that tell you don’t open your talk or your video talking about yourself? That’s not you can totally talk about yourself. It just needs to be interesting. I don’t need to hear about your accolades, your college degree, your clients who you’ve worked with, or your framework. But if you open with a story and say, you know, do you remember eighth grade, you remember your first like your first kiss, maybe it was you were five, maybe you were eight, maybe you were 14, maybe you’re a late bloomer, and you’re 22? I don’t know, do you remember your first kiss? Mine was this and everyone in the audience is like, okay, where’s this going? And it’s about me, but it’s also about them because they’ve had a first kiss. And they can be like, Yeah, what was that? Like? What was that person’s name?
So getting attention, I don’t think is as hard as we make it. I don’t think it’s as hard as we make it. And keeping their attention is just about constantly serving them reasons to say I think we got on this, this rat race where someone is like, you constantly have to be telling them what’s in it for them, what’s in it for them. And I think that’s a little jaded. I don’t think that’s true. I think people are interested in other people. It’s just that most people kind of tell boring stories, or they go into just like giving me information that in two seconds, I can Google the five hacks of getting on Instagram. Yeah, what I’d love to hear is something from you, that helps me stay connected. So the way to maintain attention is to constantly keep your ass, keep your audience asking what’s going to happen next. I wonder if they’re going to do this is this where this is going. And once you get their attention, it’s easy to keep. But if you don’t get it in the first place, you’re in trouble.
Abby Herman
So maybe less. So what I’m hearing is less formulaic, more story-like true storytelling, not the storytelling formulas that are out there.
Mike Ganino
Yeah. And even this, like, it’s totally okay to tell a story about someone else to tell another story. But what we’re interested in, like, I came to this room to hear you. I’m in your workshop, I’m on your podcast, I’m on your, at your virtual event. I’m watching your video on YouTube, because of you. So if you’re going to tell the story of someone else, I want to know how you felt about it. And that’s one of the big things I see people do when they tell a story. They say, Well, I don’t have a story to tell. So I’m going to tell a story about you know, this business down the street. Totally fine. How do you feel about the story you’re telling? That’s what I’m here for? Because I want to understand how you felt so I could say, Oh, that’s so interesting. Like, I never thought of it that way. That’s how you become a certified original, by the way.
Abby Herman
Nice. I like that. Okay. So, okay, so we’re telling our story, we’re talking to people, we’re talking to our audience and you talk about how important it is to know who you’re speaking to, to make sure that You’re actually being engaging, you’re telling the right story is all of that. You also talk about the four walls, breaking down the fourth wall with your audience, can you talk a little bit about the four walls and what they are.
Mike Ganino
What their relevance is to speaking, the breaking the fourth wall is that if you’ve ever watched the office, or you watch the first season of Sex in the City, by the way, they did this on the first season, and then changed it for season two. It’s those moments where or even if you’ve seen a theater show, and the performer kind of plays with the audience a little bit, it’s breaking that fourth wall. So in a, in a TV show, in a scene on a screen like this, like on a podcast, where there is we’re Abby and I are in a room talking and you’re all not there. But every time that I referenced someone out there, or I say you’re probably thinking that it’s a way for him to be like, Oh, he’s not just talking to Abby’s talking to me right now. He’s saying this to me right now. So on a camera on video, the fourth wall is between you and the audience there. And what happens a lot on stage or on film is that we’ll kind of just get into where we’re telling something, but we haven’t connected with who the other person is. So in the office, on the first season of Sex in the City, it’s that place where they talk to the audience, on every reality show every Real Housewives of any city. It’s those interviews where it feels like they’re talking to the audience, and it’s no longer about the characters talking to each other. They’ve now turned and they’ve said, Hey, audience, here’s what I want to say to you. So that fourth wall is literally like it comes from the world of theater. And it’s the lip of the stage that has a wall because we have the back wall, the two side walls, those are three and then that fourth wall that we all pretend is there. And we’re just watching, okay, and we reach out and we kind of say, Hey, you there? What do you think about this, the audience is like, wait, me, I thought I was just watching this. And now I have to be part of it. That’s the fourth wall that we break.
And if you watch people on TV, if you watch someone like Rachael Ray, she’s really great at this, she’ll be interviewing her guests. And then she’ll look at the camera and talk to them about something that she was talking to the guest about, or looks at the camera and makes an aside of like, Oh my gosh, have you all ever been there with making your meatballs, it’s breaking the fourth wall and creating relationship. And we as an audience feel so delighted because we’re like, it’s like, I went to a, I went to in 2019, I went to like a string of Kelly Clarkson concerts. Okay. And it’s that moment when you are like, all the way back in that arena, like 17,000 people at the, at the, you know, Staples Center or something here in Los Angeles, and you’re all the way in the back. And there ain’t a chance that she could see you. But you feel that she looks out. And she says, you know, she’s like, a moment like this. And you’re like, like the one we’re having right now, Kelly Clarkson and mean this huge arena. And it’s like this for me. That’s how that’s what it’s about.
So when you’re doing a video, it’s not just about you saying, hey, audience, I see you over there. It’s little things at the top of your video, I know that it’s very popular on YouTube. for entrepreneurs, I would say Don’t do it. Don’t say Hey, everybody, because Hey, everybody is not in a room watching. I am watching by myself, have a relationship with me? At the top of your podcast, if you have one. It’s not always saying hey, all the people who might be listening to this, it’s like, Hey, what’s up, you’re probably driving your car, maybe you’re sitting here and the person’s like, Oh my god, I am sitting here in my car. What is she doing? Is she listening to me? It’s those little places to have a relationship and it breaks the monotony. And it puts the person who’s watching or listening into a relationship with you. And it’s really effective.
Abby Herman
I like that. It can- also it doesn’t have to be verbal. So when you first mentioned to the office, I imagined, Dwight doing something ridiculous. Jim doing the deadpan stare at the camera, like did you just see what happened? Yes, can it be that too? And you can totally do that in a video when you say something off the wall or really inspiring or whatever. And then just Can I mean, stop and you stare at the camera and you wait for the audience member to soak it in before you go on? Can? That kind of the same idea?
Mike Ganino
Yeah, because it totally revealing, right? We want to reveal ourselves and how we feel about things. So the audience, that’s what the fourth wall is, it’s about me break from this and look at you and be like, this is how I’m feeling right now. And you could do that so many ways. If you’re doing a social media video, you’re creating a reel, and you’re like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you can cut and your next tape can be a close up of your eyes being like, Oh my gosh, what’s going on? And you don’t have to say anything. You can be in a you know, if I was on video, talking and I could be you know, I could look over and be like, is anyone listening to me? And then look back at the camera and be like, no one’s listening to me. I don’t have to say anything I can do with my eyes. You’re exactly right. on audio. We can do it without being super cheeky. So let’s say that we were and this is where a lot of stand-up comedians will do. With the aside, so they would say something like, it’s very important that we all show up every day in our videos and do something great. I mean, otherwise, why are we here? Right? Like, that’s
Abby Herman
A parenthetical statement that yeah, it’s in there. Yeah.
Mike Ganino
I’m breaking from the script to come over here and say like, hey, audience member, let me let you in on a secret. And we eat it up as audience members. We love him. Yeah, cuz Yeah, like it is, like a little secret that you’re telling people to everybody, but it feels like it’s just for me.
Abby Herman
Totally. Totally. I love it. Okay. Okay, so this is all fantastic and great. I love all of the tips. At the same time, I know that there are people out there and I’ve talked about this on the podcast before. I have talked about this in my membership community. I’ve talked about it just on social media in general. But I’m an introvert, I can’t speak I can’t put myself on camera. I’m terrible on camera, I don’t like the way I look at those are the types of things that I hear. Can you help to alleviate some of those mindset blocks that people have and give people permission to get themselves on video because it’s here? It needs to happen.
Mike Ganino
Some of the best people on video are introverts, honestly, because think of it a, an extrovert might and there’s a whole bunch of misunderstandings in there anyway. So like if you’re an expert on introverts and extroverts and you’re listening to me, they’ll be like, What is he talking about? He’s wrong, I get it, that I’m really putting them in buckets here. But for the purpose of this, I’m just gonna go with it. So introverts can be really great on camera or audio, and really great onstage because sometimes the extrovert, in their effort to have a direct relationship with all the people forgets on video, that they’re talking to one person, and when you’re on video, you’re talking to one person, even if you’re talking to a bunch of people in a movie theater watching you on screen, and you’re Nicole Kidman, it’s still just one person at a time having a relationship because they’re in the dark. Like when we go and see a speaker at a, at a whenever I’m speaking on a stage, I have it lit a little bit more than like a theater would be I don’t want it that dark. Because I want the group to be a group. I want to create a polarized group of an audience that’s like it’s us against whatever. It’s us against bad presentations, you know, when I’m creating that, they have to be able to see each other to feel that way. When we’re in a dark theater. It’s just us having a relationship with Luke Skywalker on our own because we can’t see each other. The same thing is happening. So introverts are actually quite effective on video because they remember that they’re just talking to one person. So that’s the number one thing I would say to the introverts out there is, you don’t have to talk to everybody. You were just having a relationship with one person out there who’s watching this video.
Number two, and sometimes the extroverts struggle with that. And so they want to be like bigger than life all the time. And that feels phony watching that on camera. You’ve seen that where people where they’re like, Hey, everybody, it’s me. And I’m here to tell you everything and you’re like, there’s nothing real about you right at all. So extroverts can have a hard time with that. In fact, one of the most famous people in the world is a super introvert and she would say it herself. Oprah Winfrey is an introvert and Gayle King, her best friend is an extrovert. Gayle King wants to go to the party and say, Hey, Hey, who are you? Who are you? Who are you? Who are you? Oprah is like, Hey, who are you? Let’s go over here and talk in the corner for 10 minutes. So even Oprah is really an introvert and great on camera. Why? Because she’s just having a relationship with one person at a time, one audience member at a time.
Abby Herman
Oprah would be so good to be so good at interviewing because she likes to go so deep. And yeah, one person. So yeah.
Mike Ganino
So that’s one thing. The second thing is that and I’m talking about all of these next three things in detail at the summit, by the way, so people want like even more, they gotta hook up and come to the come to the summit with us. So the next thing is there are these three biases that we suffer from on camera, the confirmation bias, the familiarity bias, and one that I made up called the social bias. So the first two are actually like, psychologists came up with them. And confirmation bias says that we look to the world to seek, you know, confirmation of what we believe. So we look to social media that we create echo chambers, but we also when we see ourselves on camera, we look to see Oh, yeah, see that thing I hate. It’s there, that extra baby weight that I have. Hello, I’m speaking from experience here as a new dad. It’s where everyone can see it. So we look and we confirm all the things we hate about ourselves that little mole that hair out of place that wonky eye that you don’t like the eyebrow. Familiarity bias says that we are used to seeing ourselves in a mirror. So we are used to seeing one version of ourselves when we get on video. It flips on video. This is why your friends say to you when they watch your video, they say You look fine. Like I do. Don’t look fine, it’s because to them, you look the same as they always see you looking on to you who looks in the mirror, you don’t look the same. So it’s not familiar. We don’t like things that are not familiar. It’s one of the great things about us. And one of the huge flaws we have as humans is we look and we say, that doesn’t look like what I think it looks like something’s wrong. So we hate the video, even though to everybody else, they’re not lying to your friends, they’re telling you the truth, it does look like you, it just doesn’t look like the you that you know, because of the mirror.
And then the third is the social bias. We are so used to in person, when we communicate, picking up on all the social cues, they’re paying attention, they want more, they want less, they need to laugh, the tensions high, the tensions low, I should move over there, I should move closer, I should step back, we’re really good at making all those because we’re social beings. So we’re very good at making all those small edits that feed us. And then we get on video, and we no longer have that to rely on. And we’ve never been given a system and a process of how to recreate it for ourselves on film. So then we get uncomfortable, and we think, ah, this doesn’t feel the same. Of course, it doesn’t feel the same. You’re talking to a piece of plastic inanimate object camera that isn’t giving you anything back. And this is where we see a lot of bad webinars, bad webinar behavior, where people who are performing, who are speaking, are so obsessed with seeing all the faces that we then you’ve been on these webinars before. I’m sure Abby, where you’re like, Can we just come up? You don’t need to talk to every single person here. There’s 50 of us and the obsessive like, Where’s everybody tuning in from? Please let me know in the chat. Do you see it in the chat, and we don’t use any of the information. They’re like, I’m from here, here here. And we don’t use any of it. That’s cheap. That’s like, that’s like cheap candy. And it’s only to serve the speaker’s ego because they don’t know how to just look at the camera and really connect. So they’re trying to find all these little Chiti ways to do it. And we the audience suffer. So that’s the social biases, the third one. And what you have to do is you just have to realize the first step is realizing all of those are happening. And that’s why you hate video. It’s not that your videos are that bad. It’s that you haven’t learned to overcome those three things. And
Abby Herman
I can’t wait until the summit to hear more about this, actually, I’ll get a sneak peek because I get to watch your presentation ahead of time.
Mike Ganino
Which I guess I should do mine early and send it to everybody who’s presenting and be like, Hey, I always get in trouble at these things because I’m presenting on how to present typically. And then there are other presenters and I typically, I always do I always say an apology at the top of my speech because I’m like, I know I’m gonna say something here that someone else in the next video is gonna do and the audience is gonna be like, Mike told us they shouldn’t do that. What’s wrong with this person, and I always feel so awful it happened. The other like a month ago, it was live. So I did mine live. And then I stayed for 10 minutes after. And the poor person after me was I could tell was like, Oh my gosh, the top of my like, my first five slides are, my name is Carl and I do this for a business. And these are my clients and bla bla bla bla bla. And I could tell that the person was like, I don’t know what to do, because I don’t know how to play with my slides. And I just feel awful. Sometimes people like being like, watching the next person after me being like, Oh, my gosh, they’re sitting down, they’re not using their voice. They did not do that. If you join us at the summit, don’t judge anyone else. Everyone’s doing the best we can,
Abby Herman
as I sit here sitting on my butt in front of you, and probably not projecting my voice like I should
Mike Ganino
You sound great.
Abby Herman
So good. So good. What you have a free guide, called the story, story guide, sorry, the story craft guide, if I can get the words out. So now I’m all nervous about talking. Can you talk a little bit about that? And where people can find it?
Mike Ganino
Yeah, yeah. So the story craft guide, one of the things I realized so often is that one of the things that people struggle with when they get on video, when they go to the media, when they get on a podcast, when they are in front of people on a stage is that part of the challenge is trying to remember all their content, they’re trying to remember and get it right. And the issue is that if you just tell true stories and how you felt about them, you’re probably going to remember it, you might miss a line or you might flub up or come back in something. But in general, you’re going to remember the story. And if you rehearse that story, it’s gonna be so much easier to remember the story than it is your 27 points of how to be a great podcast host or whatever. Like, you’re going to remember the stories and then be like, Oh, yeah, this is where I teach them that one thing I’m supposed to teach. So I realized that before I could help anybody get really good onstage or get really good on a podcast or on a TV interview or on a video, I had to help them figure out how to put together their stories.
And so the story craft guide is for entrepreneurs, it’s for coaches, it’s the five stories you need to be able to tell. And then I help you go through a process of several different ways to tell them so that it’s not just like, here’s my one rope story. I tell them all the time. It’s here a couple different ways. You could share the why you do what you do. So at the top of a podcast, when somebody says, tell me about yourself, you don’t go and say, Well, I was born in 1980, in a little town called San Diego, California. It’s like, that’s not really what I’m asking. What I’m asking is, tell me a story that helps my audience understand what you do. So that’s what it is. it guides you through the five stories, you need to tell all of the prompts you need to like, kind of pull them out of yourselves. And then the frameworks to put them together. I didn’t know Abby, at first I was a corporate public speaker. And so when I first went into working directly with coaches and entrepreneurs, they said, you got to have a lead magnet, and other Okay, this was to go write something. And I said, Okay, I’ll go write something. I came back with a 30-page workbook. And they’re like, No, no, it’s like a one-page thing. Like, you should sell this. And I was like, like, now if they what? They want to work with me, they can work with me, but they can have this for free. So it’s like a, I think it’s 27 page, like workbook to work through. So you can get it with your marketing team, with yourself with your family, whatever you have, and really come up with some cool stuff.
Abby Herman
Yeah, I’m a firm believer in you, do you, and what works for you. So there’s no rules about the length of your opt-in and your freebie I have a 32-page workbook as one of my opt-ins, I have like a seven day. I guess mini-workshop is one of mine. Because, you know, like, like you said, if they want to work with me, they will. And this is valuable information that I think everybody needs to know. So I’m just going to give it away. So yeah, yeah, totally agree. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me. I cannot wait like I said for the summit to hear your talk. And I appreciate all of the amazing value that you delivered here today.
Mike Ganino
Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. And, yeah, I can’t wait to see who shows up for the summit. If you’re listening. I better see you there or hear you there. Anyway, I’ll feel you there.
Abby Herman
Okay. All right. I have to tell you, I started making changes to how I approach speaking and video right after this conversation. And who doesn’t experience zoom fatigue? Some days, I have up to seven or eight calls in one day because of the way I batch my calls. I absolutely recognize that there might be a better way to handle that scheduling. I can’t wait to hear more from Mike at the Content Experiments summit. Remember that you can sign up for the waiting list at the content experiment.com slash summit. And again, registration opens to the waiting list only on February 26. If you found value in what you learned here today, be sure to share it on social media. Take a screenshot of the episode on your phone and share it over on Instagram stories. tag me at AbbyMHerman and Mike at MikeGanino. The more you share, the more we can get the podcast into the hands of more business owners just like you who need to hear the message that they are not alone. Until next time, take care!
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
