Getting Past the Fears and Self-Doubt of Podcasting with Diann Wingert
Getting Past the Fears and Self-Doubt of Podcasting with Diann Wingert

Getting Past the Fears and Self-Doubt of Podcasting with Diann Wingert

I know you have your reasons for not starting your podcast (or putting it on hold), for not using video to elevate your business, or for simply not getting the stuff done you need to do to grow.

I can almost guarantee that I’ve used the same reasons as excuses too.

But what it really is is self-doubt and fear. Maybe fear of failure or fear or success. Fear that someone will talk badly about something you’ve done. Or even fear that you’ll eventually burn out.

This week on the podcast, Diann Wingert and I are talking about all these excuses and more. Because there will always be reasons to not do the thing you want to do. How about finding reasons to do it anyway?

Listen in!

Mentioned In This Episode

About Diann Wingert

Diann Wingert became a business mindset coach after a 20-year career as a psychotherapist. She loves helping entrepreneurial women become focused, fired up, and flame retardant by eliminating the beliefs and habits that hold them back. Diann is also the host of The Driven Woman Podcast for ambitious women looking for inspiration and strategies to reach their goals. Follow Diann on Instagram and connect with her on LinkedIn.


Abby Herman 0:08
Hey there, and welcome to episode 182 of The Content Experiment Podcast, a podcast for podcasters that supports the idea that content and marketing are ever moving targets. And it’s okay if you don’t feel like you’re doing it. All right all of the time, you have permission to experiment with little tweaks and changes in your content, to find what works for you, what increases value for your audience and what grows your business, and most importantly, what feels good for you.

Abby Herman 0:38
I’m Abby Herman, content strategist and consultant for podcasting. Business owners who want to make their podcast their primary content marketing tool, feel easier and more streamlined, so they can get back to serving their clients and making those sales. Because your podcast is your primary content marketing tool, and you want to leverage it to grow your audience authority and business. I will show you how, while you do business in a way that works for you. I can help by supporting you through building a content and marketing strategy, taking care of the podcast management for you, or giving you the tools and resources to take this on yourself. If you’ve been listening in to these last few episodes, you know that you are not alone. If you’re feeling the struggle to get your next or first podcast episode or video out there. It can be a struggle to get the work done, when the work is inside your own business. And you have really high expectations of yourself. I feel it regularly too. In fact, I teach about batching content and working ahead. But to be totally honest, when it comes to my own content, I do not practice what I preach. I try and it’s it’s something that I am forever working on. Some of this comes from self doubt, and vanity, to be honest. And this is something that I’m talking about today on today’s episode with Diann WINGERT.

Abby Herman 2:06
Diann and I connected because I pitched to be on her podcast and I’m going to put a link to that episode in the show notes. And she and I also happen to be in a membership community together. Since then, she and I have spent a lot of time fostering one another about the woes of buying a home in this market. And we are holding one another accountable to get in front of the camera and do some video. On this episode, we talk more about that accountability, what’s holding podcasters and business owners back and what we can do to let go of that self doubt that we all inevitably feel. It’s a truly real conversation and one that I know will help you take your next step in your business. Before we get to the conversation, let me share a little bit more about Diann.

Abby Herman 2:55
Diann Wingert became a business mindset coach after a 20 year career as a psychotherapist. She loves helping entrepreneurial women become focused fired up and flame retardant by eliminating the beliefs and habits that hold them back. Diann is also the host of the driven woman podcast for ambitious women looking for inspiration and strategies to reach their goals. Let’s get to the interview. Hi, Diann, thank you so much for joining me. I am so excited for this conversation and to share it with listeners.

Diann Wingert 3:29
There’s already so much synergy here, Abby, because I just released our interview on my podcast today. And let me just tell you, the downloads are flying off the shelf. So I know we’re going to have just as much fun on your show right now.

Abby Herman 3:43
Awesome. I can’t wait. And I will make sure that I share my episode on your podcast in the show notes. So can you share with listeners what you do and who you do it for? For those of those people out there who don’t know you yet?

Unknown Speaker 3:59
Absolutely. I was a therapist for a very long time, until I realized I really was ready to shift the conversation from problems to possibilities. So I got certified as a coach and I’ve been doing that since 2017 exclusively online all this time. And the people that I serve are female solopreneurs I have a sweet spot for those with ADHD. And I especially am effective with women who are highly successful in their former corporate academic or nonprofit career. But now they are struggling as solopreneurs because you need to think and do things differently. Yes.

Abby Herman 4:39
And how do you work with clients? Is it an IT group? Is it one to one capacity? What does that look like?

Unknown Speaker 4:46
I have been working exclusively one to one, but there’s been demand for group programs. So I am putting that actually together right now and over the next year I’ll be rolling out both A lower cost membership and higher cost mastermind. So you can kind of go to the group that’s at the level of business and personal development that you’re at, and you want to surround yourself with.

Abby Herman 5:10
I love that, because that lets people grow with you also. How great. And so when you think about how you’re setting up your offers, I always like to ask about lifestyle. So how does the way you’re structuring this change in your business help you to live? Or how will it help you to live the lifestyle that you want?

Unknown Speaker 5:29
I love that question so much. And I think we need to be asking it of ourselves all the time, because your lifestyle should be an evolving dynamic thing. For example, three years ago, my husband retired from his position who was chief of a division at a hospital in Southern California. And I had already left my successful psychotherapy practice and was working online. So at that point in time, even though I lived in Los Angeles my entire life, he’s German, so he lived in LA for 25 years, we decided, you know, now that we’re both going to be working remotely, we could live somewhere else. So we actually on four weeks notice, moved to Portland, and we have been living in Portland for the last three years. But as a result of COVID, and recent changes in downtown Portland, we have decided to move again. So in about six weeks, I’m coming back to California, but to a completely different place. And the adventure continues, I wouldn’t be able to do that if I was still a psychotherapist. But in addition, I find that being able to serve people through group programs will allow me to leverage the skills and abilities that I have in a way that is more concentrated, and I don’t need to work with clients every single day, I find that I need days to be creative need days to do the administrative stuff, and then need days to really serve people. I cannot serve people at a really high level and with a high level of energy every single day. One more thing I should say obvious most people don’t know this about me. Even people who’ve known me for many years, I’ve been living with chronic pain for over 30 years. And because of that pain is a great motivator. Because if you continue to disrespect the fact that you have limitations caused by pain, your body will keep working harder and harder to get your attention. So I actually work a split shift, meaning I get up early, I work for several hours in the morning, I block off a three hour break in the middle of the day for a meal, meditation, exercise and a map. I take a nap every single day. And then I start working again at three o’clock. So you’re getting me fresh off my rest time.

Abby Herman 7:48
That’s great. I did not know that. I mean, we haven’t known each other for that long. But I love that the idea of doing something like that. And having that break, I tend to really slow down mid afternoon. So right now is the point where I’m kind of slowing down because I’ve been up since four o’clock in the morning. Yeah, and yeah, and and there was a time where I was napping regularly. I’ve tried to get away from that by changing some things in my life so that I don’t quote unquote, need the nap. But let’s be real, like naps are still really nice and having a break in the middle of the day. So that you have to, I guess part two pieces of time where you’re feeling really fresh. I love that

Unknown Speaker 8:28
two blocks, and I use them for different different types of things. Because I can’t do three hours of the same thing in the morning. And then three hours of that same thing in the afternoon. So I think of it as a modular schedule. And I’ve I continue to experiment with it. And as I get older, and if I encounter health, if when I encounter health problems in the future, I will make additional changes that allow me to continue to thrive but don’t don’t ignore the other aspects of my life, including my health the way I used to. I used to completely just keep going, going going until I crashed.

Abby Herman 9:04

Unknown Speaker 9:05
Sound familiar?

Abby Herman 9:06
Yes, it does. Yes, it does. So you and I have we connected a few months ago, and because I was pitching to be on your podcast and you said, Hey, I wish you were on my list to pitch to you to be on your podcast. Let’s do a swap. And in the conversations that we had leading up to my interview with you. We talked about video and showing up for ourselves and showing up for audiences online. I did a interview with Shawna Yuriko that have that went live. It was episode 164. It went live in mid January of 2022. And I didn’t do anything with the information that I learned after talking to her like I sat on the idea of doing video and you challenged me to start going live on LinkedIn and to do some more video because you had been telling yourself the same thing that you needed. to go live on video, which you have sent started doing, I want to talk a little bit and just kind of for the two of us both to be vulnerable and talk about specifically why we weren’t showing up. Why were we not doing the video? Do you want to share first? Or do you want me to share for now?

Unknown Speaker 10:17
I’d love to, I’d love to because to tell you the truth, I think one of the things that I want to use my voice to do, Abby is to break down this notion that women are in competition with each other. Ever since I moved my business online, I have met some of the most brilliant and incredibly generous women. And so I want to shout out all the people who helped me get to the point where I could challenge you. First off, I had worked with two different podcasts, launch coaches. And two years later, I still hadn’t launched my podcast. So it wasn’t until I was in a group with Jen laner. And I’ll give you her info if you want to tag her, where she does an accountability challenge two times a year, I ended up joining a membership that she runs anyway, she does this four week challenge. It’s very structured. It’s very supportive. And there’s a lot of accountability. And I finally said, You know what, I need something kind of public to get me off the fence. Otherwise, I will be in this endless loop of getting ready. And at some point, you got to stop getting ready and go to the damn party. Right. So I did that accountability challenge I publicly stated to everybody who’s doing it, I’m going to launch a podcast in four weeks, and son of a gun if I didn’t. So that’s one, two. And I know I shared this with you. So I thought well, I’m a rock star. Pretty soon I’m going to be launching episode 100. So I not only got going once I got going I kept going and I am really loving it. And I know we’re going to talk more about podcasting in a few minutes. But I still hadn’t done video I’ve had people tell me I should do video, I’m a natural on video. The video gets the algorithm all juiced up all the reasons but I still wasn’t doing it.

Unknown Speaker 12:01
While I was interviewing Heather Vickery from the brave files podcast in December. I’m the host right? And my guest challenges me saying I’m I need to get on video. I’ve been avoiding it. I’ve been procrastinating about it. I haven’t done it. And I’ve decided to do it. So I’ve challenged myself. This is how they’re talking to go on video and post video every single day for the month of December. Why don’t you join me? And I was like, Oh crap. Because I I’m too proud. I’m too vain. I would be too embarrassed to say, Oh, I don’t think so. So I thought, crap. Now I got to do it. She said, Let’s do it. And I said, Let’s do it. Okay, we did it. And I literally posted a video even when I was sick. You know from the COVID booster I was in bed with a raging fever I posted every single day, you want to know what’s happened since December. What’s happened? Bada bing, bada bam, nothing until you and I connected. And you said I’m avoiding video and I thought oh shit, Diane, you know, if you don’t face the things you’re afraid of, they do have a tendency to just keep coming back around. So I thought if not now, then when. So you were having a problem. I was having a problem. I know how well I do with accountability. And I’d also like to be able to go back to Heather and say, I know there was that little lapse of

Abby Herman 13:22
what I’m doing it.

Unknown Speaker 13:24
It really talks about how important accountability is even when we have really good intentions. And we’re thoroughly convinced we want to do something or we need to do something. Somehow we just keep tricking ourselves and not doing it until someone else is paying attention. And they’re doing it too.

Abby Herman 13:45
There will always be a reason why we can’t do something right. And this goes for every everything. I hear people I mean, I go to the gym 567 times a week. I you know, because it and I have a plan. I know. I know what I need to do to get myself out of bed to go I know that I have to do it first thing in the morning. That is the way I get it done. Yep. If I don’t go first thing in the morning, I’m not going it’s not going to happen. I will talk myself out of reasons. I yesterday, I worked out in the morning and then I went to yoga in the afternoon and I all day I was telling myself, I really don’t want to go to yoga, it’s going to hurt. I’m tired. I would rather sit on the couch. But But I had already paid for the class like I knew that they were going to charge me for the class. So I’m gonna go like you have to figure out what and and I do that intentionally I could have just held on to it and registered at the last minute and then shown up, but you have to figure out what it is that’s going to motivate you to get it done. And so for me also, it’s the accountability so I did lead a live every day in April live every day in August. So I did that gosh like four or five years ago, and I did it as part of a challenge with a couple of other people who were doing it.

Abby Herman 15:07
And by the end, I was like, never again, because I did it, I did it every weekday I didn’t do every single day of the month. I did it every weekday, but I did to just kind of buffer build up my my YouTube channel, which I don’t post to at all anymore. So don’t let’s not talk about that. Okay, well, I’ve already forgot that. Yeah, what did you say? But yeah, like you have to, but I did it because I needed the accountability I have, I have a couple of women that we co work together every Thursday morning. That’s accountability for getting stuff done inside my own business, like you have to figure out what’s going to work for you to do it. And the same, I had the same reasons for not doing video, which I’ve talked about on social media before. But you know, I feel like I’m older than your average online business owner. And so who wants to look at my gray hair and my wrinkles? You know, I’m very vain about it, I am insecure about it. But I knew that, you know, like, people want to see your face. And you know, that’s not being that’s not me being snobbish about it that people want to see our faces they want to, you know, brings about some of the personality, I feel like, I can’t hide anything and my facial expression. I’ve tried. So when when I talk, I think people can kind of see what I really feel and what I really mean. And so I just think it’s so important. And so I’m glad that you challenged me to do that. As much as I may have been purchasing your name. You know, the first time I sat down to do it, because again, like I wasn’t going to not do it. Right. Because I told you I was going to do it. So I wasn’t going to not

Unknown Speaker 16:47
Yeah, but you know, that I think is really super cool. obvious that I one of my favorite books for understanding how to get yourself to do stuff is the four tendencies by Gretchen Rubin. And I think when we understand like, I think most of us think we should be upholders, upholders of those really annoying people like my German husband, who just says they’re gonna do something and they frickin do it. They don’t need accountability. They don’t need bribery. They don’t need reward, they say they’re gonna do it and they do it. I’m like, Who are you? Most humans are obligers According to this framework, like 42% obligers, will do something, because other people are expecting them to they will let themselves down all the damn day long, but they will not let other people down. And I think when you can, instead of thinking, Well, why can’t I just do it? It’s to my benefit. I know I should I know there’s ROI. But you’re not an upholder darlin, and you cannot change that. So just embrace that you are probably an obliger. Most of us are. And by the way, if you are born female, you have been culturally conditioned to be an obliger in a big way. And you even have your female hormones that are getting in on the act, and trying to get you to do things for other people sake. So just go with it, and get the damn accountability and stop thinking that you should be anything different than you are. I will resist things that are so good for me, inexplicably. And every single time I’m like, Why did I make such a big deal out of that? It really was not that hard. And it was kind of fun.

Abby Herman 18:20
Mm hmm. Yes. I’m like raising my hand today. Yep, totally an obliger over here, too. Oh, well. So let’s talk about podcasters and an aspiring podcasters for a minute. So like, video was one thing, and it’s important. But when you think about people who are podcasting and aspiring podcasters, you know, like you said, it took you a long time to actually launch the podcast that you said you were gonna launch? What do you think I have some ideas of what I think is holding people back. What do you think is holding people back from growing their podcast or even getting started? What’s some of that mind? Junk that is floating around there?

Unknown Speaker 19:05
I think there’s some overlap Abby, between the things that hold us back from starting and the things that hold us back from growing, but I also think there’s some different things a lot of people don’t start because they think that the technology is oppressive. There’s just too much technology. They’re not tech savvy, and they think that that’s just going to be impossible for them to learn and do it isn’t. Or they think that who’s going to want to hear what I have to say I’m not an expert. Another thing I often hear is what everything that could be said on this topic or this subject or this niche or in this market. Someone else has already said probably a lot of somebodies. I don’t really have anything new or better or different. And I just don’t want to contribute to the noise. Some people think I haven’t been doing what I’m doing long enough so I don’t have the crew edentulous are the credibility. A lot of people not surprisingly, find their own voice, like the actual sound of their voice. They don’t like including me. The funny thing about this, this is that how our voices sound to ourselves is not how they sound to other people, because I’m hearing my voice reverberating through my skull, whereas you’re hearing it outside, you have a different channel, I have had so many people since I’ve started podcasting. Say, I could listen to you all day, you have the most amazing voice. One of my first podcast interviews said, you know, you have an NPR quality voice. And I’m like, what? So it’s just so funny, like what we’re thinking and what other people are thinking, you are experienced enough, you do not have to be an expert. And by the way, we could talk about that all day long, because the definition of expert has been totally transformed in the last 10 years. But you do have something to say and even if the topic that you are speaking about whether it’s cryptocurrency coaching confidence, whatever it is, yes, there are other people talking about it. And there are 7 billion people on this planet.

Unknown Speaker 21:17
So those people are not for all of them. And you just might be for some, but there really is no way. And I mean, no way. Because believe me, I’ve tried, I tried every way to avoid this, there’s really no way to confront all of those fears, all of those doubts all of those misgivings, and convince yourself to do it, until you actually just fricking do it. You just have to start I made I finally, you know, the accountability I needed. And the second thing I had to do, because I was never going to pull off that bandage, never, I had the equipment. I had the show art. I had, I had everything, I had the your I had everything, I still wasn’t doing it, I needed the accountability. And I needed to give myself a realistic goal, which was a promise I made to myself before I involve anybody else in this because it might be a frickin disaster. I’m just going to do the first 25 episodes as solo shows, and I’m only going to record 10 to 15 minutes. That’s it. And I said, I can do 25 shows for 10 to 15 minutes, I can do that. And then I will reevaluate. That turned out to be a really, really good strategy for me. Because I have a tendency to overthink and overdo over commit all the things and I’m thinking well, and then and then I go to the will if it’s never going to be, you know, a top show, why bother? So it’s like, well hold on a second, you realize, in your mind with this kind of mental nonsense that’s going on, you are equally tortured by thoughts that no one will listen, and that everyone will listen, and somebody won’t like it. And it’s like it’s not I mean, it took me a year and a half to reach 50,000 downloads. Now that may sound like a lot. And it is. But there are other shows that got 50,000 downloads in the first episode. So in the in the wide, wide world of podcasting, you simply have to start and learn as you go along, create an experiment, which is your message all day, make it an experiment, and then change it as you go. I’ve changed the show multiple times. And the more I give myself permission to do that, the more I’m enjoying continuing to do it.

Abby Herman 23:46
Yes. And can I also add that there are podcasts that will never get 50,000 downloads and that should not be a reason to not start by the way. The reason I bring that up is because I think that there’s a lot of people who are looking for that that immediate success. They want the podcast that has 50,000 downloads in the first one. And when they in the first episode and when they don’t get it or when they don’t get it within three weeks or a month. I’m done. It’s it wasn’t worth it. It you know, it’s not working, or whatever the reason is, and then they use that as a reason to stop. Have you seen that? Of course.

Unknown Speaker 24:26
Here’s the thing. I think you and I both agree on this. And I think maybe it’s not as popular as the people who say we can launch your podcasts in a weekend. But I think we really do online business owners, coaches, consultants, service providers, entrepreneurs, we do them a great disservice when we position podcast as a quick win. It is a long term strategy. That was one thing I’ve learned as I’ve gone along that I think is really important. I would absolutely do it again. I will continue to do it. I think all The time about launching a second podcast and a private podcast, it can be a little addicted. They told me that would be true about tattoos, but I only have two of those. And then I stopped. It’s actually very painful. This is less painful. But I think it’s once you get over the fears, and you realize, you know, actually, it is kind of fun. You meet tremendous people through it, but it’s a long game. And podcasting is not the top of funnel. Like if somebody doesn’t know, I used to think it was the top of funnel. And so I think I’m just going to put these episodes out and all these people are going to find me. Actually the people who are the faithful listeners have already found me somewhere else. And then they they’re being nurtured along into a relationship with me. Most of the time where they find me is on another podcast, though. So they Yeah. Oh, be a host be a guest. Like, yeah,

Abby Herman 25:56
bingo. Yes, at 100%. Absolutely. You have to do the work elsewhere. I think, you know, years ago, blogging was top of funnel podcasting was top of funnel but not anymore, because there’s so many of us out there, which is I think, a good thing because we have so many more opportunities to get in front of other audiences by you being on my podcast, me being on your podcast as guesting, in other places partnering with other people who we have met through podcasting. I mean, it’s just this Yeah, it’s a it’s an incredible journey. And I yeah, I would encourage anyone who is thinking about starting a podcast, or who is wanting to grow their podcast, to take the action to do just that. And I want to talk about cuz you mentioned that the starting and growing a podcast like those two things in the reason, the mind that shifts that we need to make an order to do both of those things that kind of overlap. So you talked a lot about the starting piece, is there anything that you would add to the growing the podcast and taking it to the next, quote, unquote, next level?

Unknown Speaker 27:07
This is why somebody but like me, needs to be interviewed by somebody like you, because I will bring up a topic and then I’ll forget.

Unknown Speaker 27:16
So thank you for that. Abby. Yes, I think there’s a lot of overlap between the fear it’s really fears and self doubt. Right. Yeah. So fears and self doubt, fears, and self doubt, fears and self doubt. And we have that in the beginning. And then once we get started, by whatever means necessary bribery, extortion, accountability. And then once we get going, I think the internal dialogue, the mindset shifts that need to evolve our Okay, now, actually, I realized, instead of thinking nobody’s going to listen, actually, it turns out there are people that are listening. That’s interesting. But I don’t think there’s enough of them. So that’s a growing problem. And then or people are listening, but I’m not getting enough reviews, or people are listening, but I’ve had some negative feedback. So what they don’t all love me. And so and also, I think it’s about expectation management, right? As we’ve talked about, podcasting is a long game. You I’m now at the point where I’m coming, it’ll be two years in May. And I’m I would say within the last few months, right about the 18 month mark to 20 months, I’m really starting to see the synergy of having a show being a guest, the people I meet the collaborations I form, it really is starting to feel like things are really popping, but to get from okay, they say you pod fade within the first seven to 10 episodes. And if I’ve made it past that, now what keeps me going now what keeps me going, the downloads, I measure things because I used to just do whatever seemed fun to me, and I never counted whether it made a difference. So I’ve learned to actually pay attention to the metrics. But it’s like dieting, if you are weighing yourself before and after every bowel movement, it is going to be excruciating. I actually I say that because I knew someone that did that seems a bit excessive but but if you’re really paying that much attention, like you’re checking your downloads twice a day, it’s not you’re gonna steal all the joy from podcasting, I think what keeps you going and keeps you growing and helps you play the long game as a podcaster you’ve gotten past the point where you’re afraid that nobody will listen because now you have actually evidence that people do and some nice, generous, thoughtful people will actually leave you reviews or DM you or tell others and that’s all lovely and wonderful. But I think you need to have a strategy for your content so that you are not literally Oh, should I gotta release an episode tomorrow. What am I going to do? Talk about that’s why somebody like you and your systems is really, really important because, I mean, I could talk about all kinds of random stuff, but that’s not going to create a loyal listenership, I need to have a bigger purpose, I need to have some sort of strategy, my episodes need to have some sort of cadence, I do like to wing it a lot on my solo shows.

Unknown Speaker 30:24
So I do not script them, I don’t have a teleprompter, I don’t write everything out, I have a basic outline. But I do decide one to three months ahead of time, what topics I’m going to be talking about, not that I couldn’t just put something out at the last minute, but I don’t think I would be somebody that would deserve to have a loyal growing audience, if I did it that way. Because it’s just not going to be as good as if I put effort into it. Now a lot of people are looking for fast, fun, easy, I actually enjoy things more, when they’re more demanding when they’re more challenging, because for me, the best feeling is pride in accomplishment. So I don’t, I don’t want to just like, oh, I’ll just give them 10 minutes of thoughts off the top of my head recorded in my car, like if that’s your brand, and that’s what your audience loves. But I’ve trained my audience to expect something a little bit beefier than that. And I do feel obligated to do something that makes me proud, and that actually meets people’s needs. So I think one of the things to grow your show is instead of worrying so much about yourself and your inadequacies and your in competencies and your doubts, think, why am I even doing this, like, who is this for? I personally love the fact that I attract enough people through my podcasts and other marketing to become my clients. But I also am serving a whole lot of people for free, that I will never meet. I have a master’s degree in social work, I spent 25 years of my life helping people who are disenfranchised. And I love that I can help people for free. While I’m helping people that can afford to pay me that is a beautiful thing. And that keeps me going to like, you know, it’s not just about me and me, you know, liking to talk a lot or thinking my opinions are important. Sometimes I do but I also think I have an obligation to help the people who have come to depend on what I have to say every week.

Abby Herman 32:42
Yes. And you know that at that has a special place in my heart to is being able to help people who because to be honest, when when I first went full time in my business, I was really in debt. And I was coming from a teaching background. So I had no I had no money coming. And then I went into business full time. And I struggled so much with even knowing how to run a business and then finding like looking for support and help. And I mean, that was back when podcasts were not a regular thing. I mean, this was in 2013. And I know podcasts are out there, but it wasn’t like my go to and trying to find somebody to help me was a struggle that you know somebody who I could afford, I found people who could help me and one who actually recommended that I put her coaching fee on my credit card after I had to after I had told her I couldn’t even afford to pay my rent, let alone and she said well just uh you can put it on your credit card. And I said absolutely not. I will never have a credit card for my business. I still don’t. And I have zero debt in my business because I just can’t I can’t operate that way. I’ll you know, it just is not healthy for me.

Diann Wingert 33:52
So yeah, thank you. Thank you for saying that because I there is a growing number of honest women of integrity in the online space who are speaking openly about how much nonsense is being propagated in the coaching and consulting industries. And this idea that you have to buy coaching programs when you are about to get your utility shut off to show the universe how committed you are to your success. Yeah, that is reckless endangerment in my opinion.

Abby Herman 34:29
Yes, I actually have a sign in I have this handpainted sign that I’ve made in my kitchen that says if it’s important to you you’ll find a way if not you’ll find an excuse and that brings that to mind. It is not your business is not so important. But you should get your utilities taken out the you know, turned off so I would say that that is not that doesn’t apply that applies to taking the action and doing the thing if it’s important to your business, you will find a way to take action not You know, spend money that you don’t have. Great, great. Alright, so speaking of that, I think that is a good segue into something else I wanted to talk about. And that’s boundaries, having boundaries as a business owner as a podcaster. And we have you and I have talked offline about this, but I think that there’s there’s a lot of different ways that I set my own days up for success, my weeks up for success my months up, and that includes scheduling that includes having a boundary around what time of day I will start meetings, because even though I get up at four o’clock in the morning, I really try not at I say try not to have any meetings start before 9am My time. So that’s five hours after I wake up because I workout I walk my dogs, I cook myself, breakfast, I all of the all of those things that are healthy for me, and are setting me up for success. But I say I try not to because there are occasionally times when I do bend those boundaries a little bit for for various reasons. Can you share a little bit about boundaries when it comes to running a podcast? Or just running a business in general? And how can we show up for ourselves? While we are making space for our work, our podcasts, our guests, and for us to be in front of other people’s audiences, which we already acknowledged was incredibly important to do.

Unknown Speaker 36:34
This is such an important question. I’m really grateful that it’s coming up between you and I especially to talk about, because when I first started coaching female solopreneurs, I talked a lot about time management, because especially because I was really focusing a lot on entrepreneurs with ADHD traits, I have ADHD, myself, time management has always been a problem. And then I realized that a lot of people are living with a lot of other needs and demands their kids, their pets, their aging parents their chronic illnesses. So I really started needing to incorporate energy management into it and talked earlier about my three hour break in the middle of the day to replenish my energy needs. But now I’m talking a lot about obligation management and how that intersects with boundaries. Because when you have a service based business, whether you work one to one, whether you have small groups, you have large groups, you have memberships, you’ve got masterminds you’ve got whatever it is, if you are working with human beings, in any kind of service capacity, you really need to figure out how to manage your boundaries with other human beings. And you’re making a really, really important point. Let’s say for example, my goal is I produce a podcast, my podcast every week, every week, I also want to do between two and four interviews on other people’s podcasts, I’ve learned that the cadence for me at this point, especially to grow the numbers, from one on one to group programs, I really need to continuously grow my audience and get in front of more and more people.

Unknown Speaker 38:14
So for each one of my own episodes, I try to get on two to four other interviews. Now, everybody’s got a different size podcast, everybody’s got a different size audience, every show that I might want to get on there, you know, perfect, more perfect, less perfect audience, you know? So it’s almost like there’s an algorithm. And when I think about that algorithm, it’s like, well, a lot of people talked about theming their days and batching their work, right. And so when it comes to boundaries, we know from a time management and energy management perspective, having theme days having batching our work does help with efficiency. Here’s where we start to get into trouble and where I now incorporate obligation management into the way I help female solopreneurs. Let’s say you want to get on another podcast and the the show host says I record my episodes this day in this day at this time. Like, oh, if I do that, that I’m going to miss my nap. If I cut my nap 15 minutes short for you today, by the way. Thank you. But But here’s the point. Here’s the point. If you’re too rigid, you’re gonna miss opportunities. If you’re too flexible, you lack boundaries and you are failing to recognize there’s a distinction between an option and an opportunity. An opportunity is even though this person schedule this person’s availability, this person’s preferred timing may not be ideal for me. Is it worth it to me to flex a little because this is an opportunity I want to Get to know this person better. I think this may be a person I could collaborate with on a masterclass or a mastermind, I really liked this person’s energy. And I know my audience will too. This person’s the bonafide expert in their area. And I’ve been waiting to get them as a guest for the last six months, like there are factors you need to take into consideration. But you should not be throwing yourself under the bus every single time. Even if you’re brand new.

Unknown Speaker 40:29
And here’s something I would say that I think is really, really important. A lot of people when they’re just getting started, especially as a coach or consultant, they have no clients, they have no platform, they have no audience. Right. And they have twins, they have dwindling resources, because they’ve already given their j ob the middle finger and they’ve launched their thing, but they do not have any revenue coming in. So they are likely to say yes to anything. anybody, anytime, anyplace anywhere. You want to do a podcast interview at 6am on a Sunday, no problem. And it’s an it’s a video podcast, too. Oh, I better get up at 430. So I got the whole hair and makeup thing going on. Like it’s, it’s not going to take very long before you start filling something that I think most people are ignoring, and is actually going to put you on the path to burnout. And what I’m speaking of is resentment.

Abby Herman 41:24

Unknown Speaker 41:25
resentment when people say, I’m really annoyed, because this person has rescheduled the interview like four times. I’m really frustrated because this person expects me like I’m not even in the same time zone. Okay, annoying, frustrating. Those are our cover words for resentment, resentment will leach, the joy, the passion, the energy, the focus, the desire, all the good Juju out of your desire to be that guest on a podcast. So I suggest set up your your optimales. Right. Most people are working with online schedulers. So what I coach my clients on is, what is your minimum? And what is your optimum? It’s kind of similar to your concept of the minimum viable content, right? What is the minimum? And what is the optimum? Now in this case, it would be? Am I willing to get up? And do Am I Am I ready to actually do a podcast interview at 6am 5am? Do I want to do it on weekends. And nobody’s gonna be talking to me about anything other than Netflix after 8pm ever? I am useless. I am useless at night. And even if it was somebody who was a really big deal and a once in a lifetime opportunity, I would really have to think long and hard about it because I cannot show up in a way that’s good for anybody. So that’s my absolute bottom line, bottom line. But within a range, I kind of have okay, I don’t want to do more than x number of interviews in a day or in a week. I need a break between them. Well, I flex a little bit because of the relationship because of the the the type of podcast it is because it’s absolutely perfect for me. Yes, I will. But you’ve got to be very intentional about that stuff. And you have to know your bottom lines in advance. If you haven’t had that conversation with yourself made those rules if you will for yourself, you are going to be running hither and yon for anything and everything getting burned out and really pissed off in a hot hurry.

Abby Herman 43:35
Yeah, well, and it’s a two way street also, right. So if you as the podcaster. Or if you if you as the the potential guest need to bend for the podcast, the Podcast, the podcast host should you know do the same like they’re, they’re what I hope what I would love to see is that everybody have that flexibility built in and you know, you have your boundaries, but you can bend them. A lot of times I am most of the guests who have been on this podcast are people who I have reached out to and asked them to be a guest. So if I’m asking somebody to be a guest on my podcast, if they’re in a completely different timezone, if they’re halfway across the world, I will figure out my own schedule so that I can have them on the podcast, something that works for them. I’m not going to do it at you know, two o’clock in the morning, but we can find a mutual time that, uh, that works for both of us. So I think that I would love to see a lot more of that in the world.

Unknown Speaker 44:36
I would love to see a lot more of that in general. I mean, I’ve invited people on to the podcast and they have been incredibly rude, you know, like interrupting, you know, just taking over treating it like a frickin infomercial. So I think you know, the bottom line is that we are actually still part of a fairly new media and there are growing canes. And there are a lot of people who will jump into something when it’s new, because they’re opportunists. And they’re usually not the people who always come with the really good etiquette. But I’m kind of holding up one end of the banner. And I think you’re holding up the other end that at the end of the day, these are relationships or the potential for relationships. And you may get on a show one time, but that person will talk shit about you endlessly, if you don’t practice some good etiquette. So, you know, I think it’s kind of, you know, a lot of and I think the other piece about this that I want to say, because it fits in with the boundaries and the obligation management, is that we really need to manage our expectations better about what we think being a host, and having guests and what we think being a guest on other people’s shows, is supposed to, quote do for us, because that’s where I think it can get really out of alignment. And you can feel this really weird kind of energy. You know, you and I both know, we’ve talked about this a little unboxer, that all kinds of randos will pitch us and want to come on the show, I’m like, You clearly don’t know who I am. And you clearly have not listened to my podcast, or you wouldn’t be asking this. So I think it’s just, you know, sometimes really understanding that it is a long game and doing a little bit of homework, because it is worth doing. Well, and I’ll tell you what, I can get a pitch from a Rando never heard of this person, they have no audience. But if they do it well, if they do it with a little humor with a little sass, with a little cleverness, they will get my attention. And they may actually get on my calendar, because I appreciate when people step away from whoever is telling these people to send out these blanket pitches to 1000s of podcast like, please stop giving this person your money, whoever they are, if you take the time to be a little clever, to be a little thoughtful, to be intentional about it. You can get a shot on even the really big shows. It’s worth taking a minute and doing it well.

Abby Herman 47:13
Yes, thank you for that. I couldn’t agree more. So as we wrap things up, which I mean, I could sit here and talk to you for another 45 minutes or so

Diann Wingert 47:24
well, I’ll blow up your bucks or later after.

Abby Herman 47:26
Okay, sounds good. Sounds like a plan. I’m thinking back on our conversation. If listeners were to only take away two things away from this conversation, which hopefully I know that they’ve taken away a whole lot more because I have an entire page of notes here. But what two things? Would you want them to take action on? What are two things that we talked about that you think are so important that they’re worth repeating?

Unknown Speaker 47:53
I would say that most people who are thinking about starting a podcast or maybe have started one and then let it kind of die in an untimely death and are wondering whether they should resuscitate it, because there’s a lot of those out there too. If your are even thinking about it, that’s a yes. If it’s still calling to you, if it’s something that you just can’t let go of. And it just keeps niggling you. Get yourself some accountability, set a date, tell some people and pull the trigger. I’m not kidding. Because once you get into momentum, you will probably stay in too many momentum and find some reasons to keep doing it. And the other thing I would say is that Don’t think for one minute that just because other people talk about what you talk about other people do what you do that your voice doesn’t matter. Because I’m sure there isn’t a single original thing that I have ever said. But it’s the way that I say it. It is with my voice, my life experience, my perspective, my sense of humor, my directness, my boldness and Sass, that will get through to my audience in a way that none of those other voices will you do not need to be the only one you just need to be you.

Abby Herman 49:13
Yes, absolutely. Well, and and there’s a reason why we all started our businesses. I mean, I am not the only person who’s managing podcasts. You’re not the only person who’s coaching solopreneurs. Like, there are other of us out there. And we’re special in our own unique ways. And we all have our own unique way of doing things. So yes,

Diann Wingert 49:34
can I give you three? you asked me for two but

Abby Herman 49:36
Yeah, yeah, go for it. Of course

Diann Wingert 49:38
I’m kind of extra, right. So I’m gonna give you a third. A lot of us treat confidence as a reward. Like, if I do a good job, I’ll feel confident right? If I launch a podcast I’ll feel confident if I get visible if I get on video I’ll feel confident like it’s something that we’re going to earn if we do some thing? Well, I actually, and I used to believe that for many, many years, I now believe that confidence is a habit and a decision. And I think when we make the decision to be confident about showing up about speaking up about sharing whatever it is that we are called to share, and we act like a confident person X, and we create the habits that confident people have, that is the reward, you don’t have to wait to feel it down the road, that is a that is something you’re going to be chasing for ever. Otherwise, I wish I’d learned that a little bit sooner in life. So that’s my number three.

Abby Herman 50:39
I love that it’s a habit and decision. I love that you have a quiz to help people through their obstacles that are holding you holding them back. Can you share a little bit about that? And where people can find that?

Unknown Speaker 50:52
Yeah, most people think, you know, if they’re not where they want to be, they have an idea about why that is. But sometimes it’s something that they don’t just have to live with, they can actually manage and overcome. So I created a quiz called What’s holding you back. And you should have a link to it in the show notes. It will tell you which of the six types whether it’s time blindness, procrastination, distractibility, and so forth. Which of those is your primary thing most people will say, but I have all

Abby Herman 51:22
I know, I was just gonna say all of the above,

Diann Wingert 51:24
girl I created this with with us in mind. But it’ll tell you, which is the primary thing. So you’ll get an email telling you about that. And then you’ll get a few more emails telling you, here’s some blog posts and some podcast episodes that are specific to this challenge. And here’s what you can do about it. Just take the first step and see what happens. There’s no, you know, we can correct all these obstacles overnight. But it is amazing what happens when you commit to just taking the first step.

Abby Herman 51:54
Yeah. And where can people find you and more about you? And and I do have to say before you tell everyone about your podcast, I agree with the person who said that they could listen to your voice forever. Because your podcast when I listened to it, your voice is just so calming. And, and just you you do have an NPR voice. It’s very calming, and very. And I think that people because I feel like my episodes are pretty no nonsense, and to the point and yours are as well. Like, I like that we have a very similar style. So

Diann Wingert 52:34
thank you.

Abby Herman 52:34
Yeah, now share, please.

Diann Wingert 52:35
Yes, no, I appreciate that. Because the stuff that I talked about is sometimes like a little bit of a sucker punch to the gut. Like I’m very direct, and I make some very powerful and sometimes provocative statements. So it’s nice that it’s wrapped up in this kind of honeyed voice with low tones, because that helps the medicine go down. So the podcast is called the Driven Woman Podcast, and it is specifically created for ambitious women falling short of their goals. And like I said, it’s almost at 100 episodes, it’ll actually be over 100 By the time this is released, if you have never listened to it before. Go listen to episode 100. Because I did something very, very special for that. I’m not even going to tell you what it is. I have to go listen.

Abby Herman 53:22
Okay, well, I know I can’t listen for a few weeks because episode what you’re on what 97 I think that’s what we’re recording this. Dang it. I have to wait.

Unknown Speaker 53:30
No, 98 You’re number 98. Okay, two more weeks. Two more weeks. You can wait, you can wait two weeks.

Abby Herman 53:37
Off. Awesome. Well, Diann, this has been so much fun and so great. And I really appreciate you and your friendship and our Voxer messages and and all of your wisdom. So thank you for being here and for sharing

Unknown Speaker 53:50
and to continuing our visibility on video together.

Abby Herman 53:54

Unknown Speaker 53:56

Abby Herman 53:58
I mean, I loved the realness of this conversation. And it just felt really good to talk to someone who thinks so similarly to me. My biggest takeaways from this conversation is what Diann said about not worrying about your inadequacies and self doubt, and really focusing on who you’re doing this work for. Your Podcast is a service that you are giving to people. Yes, it is a way to nurture your audience and market your business but it’s also free value that you give to others who may never hire you and that’s okay. Stop worrying about you in this scenario and start worrying about delivering incredible value to your audience. If you found value in what you learned here today, be sure to share it on social media. Take a screenshot of the episode on your phone and share it over on Instagram stories. You can tag me at the content experiment and tag Diann at coach Diann WINGERT. It’s D I A N N W I N G ERT the more you share, the more we can get the podcast into the hands and earbuds of more business owners just like you who need to hear the message that they are not alone. Until next time, take care

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